Various Gameplay?

[Jay T.]

I'm sure when we look at certain characters, we usually try to figure out their special abilities and what they are capable of. The problem is, while a Sonic game is usually built for speed sometimes, the problem is that some characters are not built for speed. Characters such as Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Blaze, Espio, and even Silver have shown themselves worthy of great speed that'll allow them to pass through loops and what not. However, some characters like Rouge, E-123 Omega, Big the Cat, Vector, Charmy, and so on are not really types that are built for speed, which can lead to problems in terms of gameplay.

What I'm getting at, is that sometimes we need some variety in gameplay. Someday, maybe, SEGA will make a platformer game that uses more than just the speedy ones, and the non-speedsters will need some kind of gameplay change up if possible (Like Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 Battle). This topic is pretty much about: What type of gameplay Non-Speedy Characters should have?

I pretty much named some of the speedsters, but I'm going to exclude Silver, since even though in the Sonic Rivals series he can run fast and curl into a ball, it's pretty much like Sonic and Silver with telekinetic powers. I might exclude Espio further down, depending on what I can think about later on (Note: I have not played Sonic Rivals due to no PSP).

Silver for example is a slower character than Sonic, Shadow, and Amy out of all the hedgehogs. He can't even curl into a ball, which is somewhat forgiving, possibly due to his design (the two super long quills, and the boots may hinder Silver, but that's just a thought). Silver's gameplay in Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 pretty much focused on using his powers to get to point A, to point B. Sonic 2006 had it in the right path, but it does need some improvement here and there like more control with your powers(Note: I've only seen videos. Haven't played Silver's story in Sonic 06 yet).

Rouge is another example. Slow, can't curl, but powerful when it comes to her kicks. One thing I remember is that, she's pretty much the spy/robber type. So...wouldn't a slow, spy mission like stage work for her? I mean like, trying to get around security, sneaking and climbing, using her spy like skills to do things to maybe shut down cameras, or something...heck, maybe combine this with her treasure hunting gameplay a bit, I dunno. It's just a random thought. I guess Espio could fall under this category (since he's a ninja and such), minus the treasure hunting, IF he doesn't fall into the Speed Category (which he kind of does).

I just don't think we need another Sonic Heroes game (not saying it's bad, but the fact that most of the characters have the same moves and such, especially similar to their own teammates like the spin jump, homing attack <when you're the speed character, they follow sometimes>, and speed...yeah). At least show some variety is all.

This is just an opinion of mine. I'm sure I really screwed up somewhere here, but whatever. So...discuss.

EDIT: Ironing out some mistakes now.

EDIT 2: I tried. Still some mistakes, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Jay Tanoshi

[Serperior]

These are some pretty good game concepts however it would be hard to make different gameplay styles for each character without it ebing too similar to another game

[Indigo Rush]

I understand what you're getting at here, and I do think there should be some variation with each character, however it may be best if all characters were shown to have some minimal super speed. They're obviously capable of it, Sonic Heroes is prime evidence. I toyed with the thought that each character that was playable (around 4 per game) had a ability-specific bonus game in leu of the bonus stages in Sonic 3, although they aren't just pinball-based, and variate based off of each character's personal traits. A fantastic example is Tails; maybe his bonus stage is a plane shooter. Maybe Knuckles can have a boxing mini game similar to Punch Out!!, and perhaps Amy could sport a whack-a-mole game. I guess Sonic can have the traditional speedy Special Stage.

So, yes, there definitely should be variation, but I'm not sure if the main gameplay should deviate from the speed+exploration and spinball emphasis that Sonic games are known for. Keep in mind, we're assuming the gameplay speed is akin to a slightly faster Sonic Adventure, not Unleashed. That's just cruel on Big's legs. (or lack thereof)

[Rusty Spy]

Vector could utilize gameplay that involves destroying huge objects and obstacles by various means. First thing that comes to mind is having heavy platforming and some brawling and maybe a heavy emphasis on puzzle solving(he is a detective after all), while still being able to move around swiftly. Maybe Charmey could work along side Vector in some instances in which they could tag team through levels.

I consider Knuckles and Amy slow characters for the most part, and it wouldn't hurt for them to downplay the speed and branch out their respective gameplay styles.

As I said on another topic:

Knuckles played almost perfectly in Black Knight, it had the emphasis on close combat, utilized Knuckles' abilities, and most importantly, he was decently fast, but wasn't fast enough to constantly run past/into enemies. Just take away the swords and the infinite glide thing and your all set.

And Amy could work the same way as Knuckles only maybe more 'obstacle course' like levels.

Edited April 11, 2009 by VirgoTheCougar

[Jay T.]

I understand what you're getting at here, and I do think there should be some variation with each character, however it may be best if all characters were shown to have some minimal super speed. They're obviously capable of it, Sonic Heroes is prime evidence. I toyed with the thought that each character that was playable (around 4 per game) had a ability-specific bonus game in leu of the bonus stages in Sonic 3, although they aren't just pinball-based, and variate based off of each character's personal traits. A fantastic example is Tails; maybe his bonus stage is a plane shooter. Maybe Knuckles can have a boxing mini game similar to Punch Out!!, and perhaps Amy could sport a whack-a-mole game. I guess Sonic can have the traditional speedy Special Stage.

So, yes, there definitely should be variation, but I'm not sure if the main gameplay should deviate from the speed+exploration and spinball emphasis that Sonic games are known for. Keep in mind, we're assuming the gameplay speed is akin to a slightly faster Sonic Adventure, not Unleashed. That's just cruel on Big's legs. (or lack thereof)

Yeah, I see what you mean.

It's just that while Sonic Heroes was indeed a good game, it just felt odd to see so many characters capable of keeping up with their fastest teamates, including Big (excluding Tails, Knuckles, Omega, and I guess Rouge and Vector. Don't know what to think about Cream to be honest). But, you're pretty much right. Just...they need to have a certain amount of speed, not the same.

Virgo does seem to be onto something with Vector though. I actually love the idea. And yeah, Knuckles did play well in Black Knight, and Amy is similar, so...yeah. Really could work.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Jay Tanoshi

[Diogenes]

Honestly, I think everyone should have the same basic gameplay. Build everyone on the same basic setup, ideally the quick physics-based platforming that the series started with. Then work in the differences on top of that. Some characters would be faster than others, some have special abilities like flight or maybe one has a double jump or a wall jump and so on, maybe some don't even have the basic spin and attack in some other way.

Trying to build a different gameplay style for each character is just going about it the wrong way. It's too much effort for something that generally isn't wanted anyway.

[Rusty Spy]

Honestly, I think everyone should have the same basic gameplay. Build everyone on the same basic setup, ideally the quick physics-based platforming that the series started with. Then work in the differences on top of that. Some characters would be faster than others, some have special abilities like flight or maybe one has a double jump or a wall jump and so on, maybe some don't even have the basic spin and attack in some other way.

Trying to build a different gameplay style for each character is just going about it the wrong way. It's too much effort for something that generally isn't wanted anyway.

I've played Sonic Advance....It wasn't that fun.

[Diogenes]

I've played S3&K, and it's loads of fun.

[Rusty Spy]

I've played S3&K, and it's loads of fun.

And now you see the chain reaction happening here. It was fun the first few times, but after seeing the same gameplay template rehashed again and again, it gets boring really quick.

[Jay T.]

And now you see the chain reaction happening here. It was fun the first few times, but after seeing the same gameplay template rehashed again and again, it gets boring really quick.

Yeah. Unfortunately, that's what most people want, and I'll admit, it does get tiresome to see over, and over, and over. Kind of why I love playing the Legend of Spyro series (even though they're rather short and not...big). XP

[SuperStingray]

I've played Sonic Advance....It wasn't that fun.

I've played S3&K, and it's loads of fun.

Yeah, see the difference is that S3&K has environments with specific differences that take advantage of the different characters movesets rather than giving each character different moves and dropping them in the same levels and hoping for the best. Don't get me wrong, I love Sonic Advance, but it hardly had the same charm as S3&K.

[Diogenes]

And now you see the chain reaction happening here. It was fun the first few times, but after seeing the same gameplay template rehashed again and again, it gets boring really quick.

I can go play S3&K right now and it'll still be fun.

If they were to make another game that retains the same gameplay style and quality, I would also have fun with it.

[Phos]

Sonic Advance's levels seem to me to be something I'd expect out of a fan game, which is funny, because I'd expect it to be made by the same team who made Sonic Pocket Adventure, which is a lot more fun. I'd compare the credits, but...

Executive Producer: Takeshi Nishiyama

Producers: Masato Kawai, K. Kohno, Hiroshi Matsumoto, Yuji Naka

Director: "Landsat"

Supervisor: Yuji Naka

Main Planner: Yukihiro Higashi

Co-Planner: Y. Arita

Planner: "AP"

Main Graphic Designer: J. Yoshii

Graphic Designers: "Kinite", "Rikabe", "BonBon", Nobuhiko Honda, "Mikima-2", Yuko Yamanoue, "Ponta", Masami Tokusue

Main Programmer: Yumiko Nakatsuka

Co-Programmer: "MSX-MNB"

Programmer: Naoki Kurihara, "Uechan-Dayo", Takeshi Niimura

Sound Chief: "Hiya!"

Sound: "Maitaro"

Development: "M.I", Toshiyuki Hata, "Eg-King"

Debug: Masahiko Sawa, "Ebi", "Toku", Debug Team

Manual Making: Hide.K, Aya.M

Created By: Dimps, Sonic Team (Co-Developer)

Published By: SNK, Sega Enterprises Ltd. (Co-Publisher)

...They aren't very useful.

[Semi-colon e]

I agree with Diogenes, the gameplay should be mostly the same but with each character's abilities. Sonic Advance wasn't the best game, but Amy's version of the game was awesome due to having to adapt to having to trigger attacks. Advance 2 had too much focus on running, so all the other abilities were extraneous (sp?). In Advance 3, there was arguably way too much diversity but that did at least give replay value, and this time it was optional.

Blaze in the rushes plays almost exactly the same, I'd like a couple more moves difference, and maybe different levels for her too (one can dream lol)

[Dr. Mechano]

Eggman could have a slightly less bulky version of his SA2 gameplay. I loved the shooting stages, and it'd be fun to have playable Eggman again.

I mean, if they're not gonna make him the main villain of the 3D games anyway, he might as well get a playable appearance out of it. I think he's more fun as a playable hero anyway.

[Blacklightning]

Tails - keep the same targeting mechanism as the recent Homing Attacks (the ones which actually have visible crosshairs to tell you where you're going to hit), but replace the Homing Attack with a projectile move of some sort (the Energy Ball from Sonic Battle comes to mind) so as to let Tails shoot things on the move. Allow him to call in the transforming Tornado whenever he feels like to help with different situations (Plane mode to play through sky sections, car mode to cover ground quickly, walker when there's simply too many enemies to handle alone). Perhaps throw in some gadgets in the interest of somewhat tactical gameplay (proxy mines, hacking eggbots and turrets etc)Otherwise, identical to Sonic plus the flight ability.

Knux - No, forget the fucking werehog. The combo system is absolute ass for a Sonic game and only serves to rob from the pacing of the game. Instead, use a variety of singular attacks triggered by contextual and directional inputs (eg: moving towards opponent, moving away from opponent, on ground, in air etc...) that can chain into each other simply in using a little creativity in the sequence of moves. Keep the "Emerald Radar" and broaden it to detect a wider range of secret objects (including hidden passages and prospective Special Zones). Other than that, all the standard and obligatory stuff still applies.

Shadow - Replace the Homing Attack with a Chaos Snap-esque quick teleport kick to the target enemy. Slow him down some, but compensate with heavily destructive Chaos powers triggered with movement+button combinations ala classical fighters like Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter. Keep the Chaos Boost from '06 and expand on it so it does a LOT more than give access to tier-specific moves - amplifying existing powers and abilities and increasing durability would be a good start. Everything else is either basic standard stuff or obligatory from previous games.

Silver - The TK-grab and paralyzing abilities are perfect the way they are, especially now that Unleashed has removed the infamous Touch of Death from standard enemies. He needs to be able to do more with telekinesis than straight-throw and hover, though. Maybe throwing objects on a controlled arc, or keeping hold of the object to use it as a crude melee weapon until it breaks (kinda like what I'm doing in my avatar right now). The hovering, particularly the "teleport" move (you got it in Sonic '06 by pressing jump twice really quickly) could use a big boost, particularly in the speed department. Silver is one of the few characters I believe shouldn't play at all like existing characters, so I can't say doing so is particularly necessary as long as stage design allows for it.

Rouge - definently needs a stealth-centric playstyle, mixing her kicks in with with a bit of "find, steal, leave" gameplay ala the Thief series. Not that this would change her actual play style much - she'd just be invisible in dark areas. Replace the gliding with Tails-esque flight, but keep the wall cling ability that came with it. Stealth KOs would be nice too, as long as we're to be less reliant on full-out fighting. Other than that, all the basic and obligatory stuff as usual.

Eggman - more or less keep the SA2 playstyle, but instead play with the classic Eggmobile. Players can attach parts to the Eggpod with a mixture of SatSR's level up/pregame customization system and Banjo: N&B's vehicle construction system. The player assigns different parts depending on the needs of the mission each time, lending many different ways to play most levels but still a certain necessity in choosing the right items for the layout. Different options range between a variety of weapons, a method of movement (flying, walker, mech, wheels) and a set of ambient gadgets which work automatically without player input (energy shield, sniper scope, chain link, bumpers as random examples). Basic lock-on mechanism from SA2 still applies for some weapons, but the targeting method used in Tails' playstyle would be used for others (such as the Volkan Cannon).

[Phos]

I think Shadow needs to get written out already (maybe get a Sonic Universe-esqe spin off), but because I got inspired suddenly, here's how I think he should play (I am making no attempt to fit this into a platformer):

Movement - Working more like Link from LoZ, ditch the automated jump. Add left and right turbo (and I don't mean for rapid button presses) buttons (Anyone who has played already knows where I'm going with this). Dashing (done by pressing a turbo button while moving) to evade attacks, works in mid air.

Combat: Almost verbatim Virtual On clone, attacks are controlled with the triggers, pulling both gets the center attack. Each attack (right, left and center) is tied to a recharging gauge. Using an attack and pressing a turbo at the same time changes it, right turbo yields a stronger, slower version of the attack, left turbo gives a faster, weaker version. Firing while dashing changes the attack in a different way, depending on the direction you are dashing relative to you're target.

Left weapon is the chaos spear, it works like the Cypher's ice daggers. The right weapon is a more direct chaos attack, more similar to a right weapon you'd see in Virtual On (haven't worked out the details)

The center weapon will be used for teleporting, and here's where it starts to get different from Virtual On:

Upon activation, you have a small amount of time to move the stick to choose what direction you want to teleport in, the resulting teleport snaps to points of interest. Teleporting forward while dashing puts you behind you target, you can buffer an attack while reappearing to do it on the earliest possible frame.

Omega - I just realized how well Omega would fit as some kind of Easter Egg unlockable in Virtual On. Anyway, I say make a spin off using Team Dark as the playable characters, it would be like a who's who of characters who's respective stories petered out without actually going anywhere. Regardless, Omega needs Metal Wolf Chaos's weapon switching mechanic, complete with the clown car-ish animations.

[\Lennox]

Blaze in the rushes plays almost exactly the same, I'd like a couple more moves difference, and maybe different levels for her too (one can dream lol)

If you haven't seen the flame-populated Zones in the Rush series, you don't know much about the differences between Sonic and Blaze just yet. But still, two paths per different character could work better than having to play as one character in the same Zone.

For example, more flames in certain Zones in which Blaze would be played, and more speed jumps and grind rails for Sonic. But still, you can actually have the characters have one path of their own for each Zone they have. But of course, they should start in the same starting point.

[SuperLink]

I want to avoid sounding like a classicfan, but S3&K was really good, the Sonic Advance series was really good, and having characters to choose from in Black Knight is really good.

I think you may know what I'm getting at here. Other gameplays are mostly "not fun" in COMPARISON to Sonic gameplay, maybe with the exception of some of a little treasure hunting or shooting (was fun in SA1 but not SA2). Playing the same speed + platforming based gameplay with different characters having access to different paths is PERFECT in my opinion. There was very little of it in any game but S3&K though.

[Rusty Spy]

I want to avoid sounding like a classicfan, but S3&K was really good, the Sonic Advance series was really good, and having characters to choose from in Black Knight is really good.

I think you may know what I'm getting at here. Other gameplays are mostly "not fun" in COMPARISON to Sonic gameplay, maybe with the exception of some of a little treasure hunting or shooting (was fun in SA1 but not SA2). Playing the same speed + platforming based gameplay with different characters having access to different paths is PERFECT in my opinion. There was very little of it in any game but S3&K though.

While I somewhat agree, I find playing as the other characters mostly pointless since there's little reason I can find to play as them due to their severe lack of varied gameplay. If you took most of the gameplay suggestions for these characters and designed them to play in platform stages much like Sonic's, but more suited to the character would give them more uniqueness while still keeping the basic goals for every character the same as Sonic's.

[SuperLink]

In S3&K, most of Knuckles' paths involved climbing and gliding. In SA1, Amy's stages were a great idea, and so were Tails', they were platforming stages without a purpose, both both were too short, and Amy was far too slow. The characters need to be optional, but they need something that will make you WANT to play as them, rather than groaning as we have done mostly in the past.

For me, having multiple characters play the same stages as Sonic just adds to gameplay value, unlockable content and I just like playing as other characters. When I play Sonic Advance, I think "Who should I play as?" When I play Sonic Adventure, do you really think I choose any character other than Sonic, Tails or Metal Sonic?

[Rusty Spy]

For me, having multiple characters play the same stages as Sonic just adds to gameplay value, unlockable content and I just like playing as other characters. When I play Sonic Advance, I think "Who should I play as?" When I play Sonic Adventure, do you really think I choose any character other than Sonic, Tails or Metal Sonic?

Well, in this case, having characters all play on Sonic's stages means that they have to play just like Sonic with one or two pointless abilities attached. I'd find it twice as fun if the characters at least had their own independent levels.

[SuperLink]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. In the Sonic Adventure games, one of my favourite things to do was use a cheat device in order to play as the other characters on Sonic or Shadow's stages.

[CreamyBagel]

^I found it more fun trying to find ways to sneak characters into certain stages. Like using the door bug on Sonic Adventure to get Tails, Knux and Amy into Emerald Coast. I like playing Sonic's stages as other characters as long as there are different routes otherwise it would get a bit reptitive. Although I also enjoy each character having their independent stages like in Sonic Adventure 2, there's more eye candy that way.

[Semi-colon e]

If you haven't seen the flame-populated Zones in the Rush series, you don't know much about the differences between Sonic and Blaze just yet. But still, two paths per different character could work better than having to play as one character in the same Zone.

I am aware of Sky Babylon but that is just one stage really.