Sonic 4 Pessimists: "We told you so!"

[Ferno]

*Just got home from track practice about an hour ago, and I'm exhausted as all hell, so it's hard to get my thinking straight at the moment* But yeah, this topic is basically about what I knew would happen since day one of Needlemouse's announcement last year. Ever since then, everyone; Media, (especially IGN), retrofags etc. have been saying things along the lines of "Finally, Sega's realized that Sonic doesn't work in 3D! After a decade of terrible games, Sega's finally getting their heads out of their asses and listening to us!" And while I respect their opinions, the crazy optimist in me just wants to yell "AW- c'mon guys, the 3D games weren't all that bad!" I mean yeah, there were time's when the mechanics didn't work, and yeah a certain game was rushed and was just "so bad" that it's still being beaten to a pulp like a long-dead rotting horse, but many times people often forget that there were times when the 3D games worked and got things done right.

I just think people spend to much time comparing the recent games to the classic ones rather than looking at the games themselves as stand alone games. It's like a new game can't be allowed to stand on it's own, but forever use Sonic 1 & 2 as crutches, with S3&k for a neck brace.

Now I'm not saying the classics are bad, or that by making this game the Sonic franchise is going backwards, or that we need to move forward to the point where it's not even recognizable as "Sonic" anymore, heck, I can't wait for Sonic 4 to come out. All I'm saying is that we should let the team try new things while still keeping enough staples of the series in there to keep classic fans and modernfans happy, I mean, It worked for Galaxy, just saying. (Though even I'll admit that the Werehog wasn't the best thing to happen to the series...*under his breath* was still fun though..)

'Might add more later, but yeah, what's everyone's opinions about this whole "I told you so, Sega!" thing that's been going on lately? Do you agree with them and think they have every right to think this way? Do you disagree and think the opposite?

Post away, explain your reasoning, and remember, respect each other's opinions guys, I don't wan't things to get ugly.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Ferno

[Mort]

Because Sonic has the most fickle fanbase I have ever seen. I'm not a huge fan of the 3D games, but I do really like Adventure 1&2 and Unleashed. If the day stages were refined just a bit more and the werehog wasn't actually in the game, I actually think it'd be the best Sonic game to date.

I'd personally prefer them to go the whole Mario route with things, having them think "Okay so we got this new 3D title and this upcoming racing game too, how about we do an old throwback classic style game as well" kind of thing. I don't think Sonic inherently doesn't work in 3D, and I would love to see them continue making both 3D and 2D titles.

[Sega DogTagz]

Might add more later, but yeah, what's everyone's opinions about this whole "I told you so, Sega!" thing that's been going on lately? Do you agree with them and think they have every right to think this way? Do you disagree and think the opposite?

Even though early reports on Sonic 4 have assured us that the 2D platformer will not interfere with the console product(s), I beleive all this "I told you so" mockery will indeed put any future 3D games on some bad territory. Not that they weren't on foul grounds before, but releasing Sonic 4 will re-enforce the negative behavior of the press on modern titles, which sucks but is inevitable at this point.

Sure, people are righted in their opinions, but to dance on the seemingly temporary shallow grave of the 3D titles seems a bit classless to me. Especially considering the successes of a select few 3D games, the most recent one included.

As far as the review industry goes, people have made it a point with the 3D Sonic to at least say something optimistic in the preview stage. This new attitude takes away the incentive to even go that far.

Wat? 3D? Burn it and wait for episode II.

[EXshad]

Ah, bullshit. I think Sonic in 3D works fine when handled with the proper execution. The Adventure games are perfect proof of this. Now, I know there's people who have their fair share of gripes with them, but I'm sure I could get a unanimous agreement that they're better than Sonic's more recent 3D outings (bar Sonic Unleashed, possibly). They took the fantastic speedy platforming and brought them to 3D the same way Super Mario 64 did with the Mario franchise. The momentum-based gameplay was in-tact, with some great characters, and.... a couple duds. But the stories for both games were surprisingly good, and added a lot of heart and lovable qualities, back then, anyway, to previously silent characters (bar the TV shows). The graphics were also amazing, yatta-yatta-yatta.

The sad part is that SEGA, for some reason or another, can't reproduce this kind of success, and I believe it's due to shoe-horned gimmicks more than limited development time. For example, I really enjoyed Sonic Unleashed, but the Werehog's long and non-linear levels really pissed off the public, and coupled with an over-usage of QTE, it nearly ruined the game for some.

But I bet Sonic 4 may give SEGA a chance to take a second look back to see what makes Sonic so great, and maybe they'll apply the lessons they've learned to the big 2011 20th anniversary Sonic game. Maybe then the critics will put their foot in their mouths. But for now, I wish they'd concede that Sonic DID work in 3D... 2 console generations ago.

[azoo]

The problem is that we've come so close to the perfect Sonic in 3D but it was never tapped to it's true potential.

All they need is to make the same environment styles from what we're seeing in Sonic 4, give the gameplay from SA1 (except make the Spindash non-spammable and fix those glitches and physics), and give us high quality HD graphics like Unleashed.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

...wait, what? What, exactly, is it the gaming media are saying?

Because if they're saying "Woooo, look, this is a return to 2D Sonic and it looks awesome this'll fix everything", they're missing the point that this is no different to Sonic Rush.

And I don't mean in terms of look and gameplay (well, I do, but not during the point I'm making right now). Because we've got:

• 
  
  
• Non-main-series title (SEGA have stated themselves that this isn't a "big major Sonic game" - that's coming at the 2011 anniversary)
  
• Non-physical release (it's a download game, not an expensive-ass PS3/Xbox blockbuster)
  
• 2D all the way, yo (look, it's Sonic Rush 3)
  
• Doesn't really look very retro at all (look, it's Sonic Rush 3)
  
• fgsfdsrneoiwanchrGREENEYESTENTACLEHEADskjfkeowsncfjngp (LOOK, IT'S SONIC RUSH 3)
  

There is nothing but hyperbole we have seen of this game so far that did not also apply to Sonic Rush.

The allegation that "the media" have failed topick up on this fact as yet only encourages me to continue never watching the news.

*EDIT*: Watch me continue this line of R-R-R-ROID RAGE in the Sonic Rush 3 thread!

Edited February 9, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Mort]

Because if they're saying "Woooo, look, this is a return to 2D Sonic and it looks awesome this'll fix everything", they're missing the point that this is no different to Sonic Rush.

I liked Sonic rush : (

Everyone says they don't count as Sonic games because they're on a Nintendo console though (Outside of this forum anyway).

All they need is to make the same environment styles from what we're seeing in Sonic 4, give the gameplay from SA1 (except make the Spindash non-spammable and fix those glitches and physics), and give us high quality HD graphics like Unleashed.

You can add the multiple routes and short cuts from Unleashed into the formula as well. Edited February 9, 2010 by Mort

[Indigo Rush]

Woah... calm down there, FroNitro.

We still have yet to see more gameplay before we call it Sonic Rush 3.

[Nepenthe]

I've always had the feeling that the media (or at least the general gaming populous) would use a potential large 2D release as an excuse to write off the viability of 3D Sonic, and frankly it just doesn't faze me. While such a sentiment is almost demonstrably false what with the Adventure series existing and all, I understand that people have been burned too many times to be a bit more rational about the whole thing. Of course, disappointment is not a viable excuse for illogical behavior, but I still see the reasons why. But none of this matters in the end, though. There's nothing to indicate that Sonic 4 will impede on the production of the 3D games anyways, so I have nothing to feel bad about.

[Sega DogTagz]

To me, it wouldn't be a bad thing if this ended up as Rush 3

(it would be terrible for the scope of this game, but the game itself would be awesome).

[Cephrien]

Yeah. Seriously. What's wrong with it being Sonic Rush 3?

I'd be game for that.

[CrownSlayer’s Shadow]

A Sonic Rush game seems to be more about speed and less on platforming, and I think that's what some fans do not want.

Either way, I'm not particularly phased by any of the bullshit that goes on in the review industry. It's juicy humor when a 3D game they just so happen to think is worse than Sonic 06 actually sells over 2 million, despite how much better it could've been.

People outside the fanbase aren't all too aware that the 3D Sonic games are not going to stop, and while Sonic Team needs to get their act together when it comes to making said game, that perfect 3D game is just right around the corner to dick-slap all the haters for the hatin.

At the moment, just live and learn (pun intended). I consider myself to have incredibly high standards, but I try to enjoy what I can without being such a sourpuss about it. You practically end up hating the smallest things for the silliest of reasons (like green eyed Sonic) if you complain about every small little detail, and honestly, where's the enjoyment of being that kind of a nitpick? It must hurt to have your head up your ass like that.

Edited February 9, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dejablue]

It doesn't matter. Eventually the Media will hate on this game as well.

[redmenace]

People are idiots about this 3D business. None of the titles failed becasuse of it. There was something else allied to the complains. Sonic Adventure is likes close to perfection, and it was so at the time. So really saying 3D was the downards point is untrue. The fact that the team "forgot" what made the classics so good was the problem, not the inclusion of the z axis.

Making a game 3D doesn't automatically mean it's not Sonic. Taking off the physics, the momentum, the multiple paths and their consequences and more is what Sonic isn't, and that's why people hate on the game. Like the stupid bawing the model. It means jack shit to what Sonic truly means, and that's why it pisses me off so much and I go in awful tangents about it.

Take Unleashed. It did not pan out like people wanted because of the werehog levels and the exagerated speeed focus. It had nothing to do with the title being in 3D or not. If Sonic 4 fails, is not because of being 2D or the model or whatever. It's because it did not emulate the classic gameplay like they told us it would.

Edited February 9, 2010 by redmenace

[Mort]

the multiple paths

Wait whats wrong with multiple paths? The other things kind of have to change to accommodate some aspects of 3D to some extent, but Sonic games have always had multiple paths and figuring out which is quickest.

[JaidynReiman]

If anything, 3D Sonic games need MORE multiple paths. But really, I think the closest we got to having a great Sonic game is in the Adventure's (in my opinion 2, but let's save that for later). Each of them still have their own problems, though, which Sonic Team hasn't addressed. That doesn't mean Sonic doesn't work in 3D. It just means that they need to make a formula that works in 3D, and cut all gimmicks/increase the overall quality of the game. Quality-wise, from what I've heard, Unleashed is very good. Gimmick-wise, more than half the game is Werehog.

The best way to handle this situation would be to do what the classics did and allow you to have a bunch of optional characters who play through the exact same levels (maybe this time around with separate stories as we currently have), and use their unique abilities to traverse the stages in their own way.

As far as this game goes... Its modern-day Sonic with modern-day graphics but in a classic setting. Its not Sonic Rush 3 because for one, it doesn't follow the events of Sonic Rush, and for two, it mostlikely doesn't even play like Sonic Rush, either. For sure there is no boost, a very important aspect OF Sonic Rush. The environments are more in line with the classic Sonic games. As for the actual physics... we don't know anything about them yet, so how can anyone say they are like Sonic Rush?

The only other difference about the game is that Sonic has one modern-day ability: the Homing Attack. And even then, variations of said ability have appeared in the past (Flame Dash is essentially a non-homing homing attack, while an upgrade in Sonic 3D Blast actually homes in on enemies).

Its not Sonic Rush 3. Its "New Sonic the Hedgehog." (Akin to "New Super Mario Bros.")

[redmenace]

Wait whats wrong with multiple paths? The other things kind of have to change to accommodate some aspects of 3D to some extent, but Sonic games have always had multiple paths and figuring out which is quickest.

Not that many as the classics, and the risk-reward isn't there either.

I don't see why we have to forget about anything to accomodate 3D.

[Mort]

Not that many as the classics, and the risk-reward isn't there either.

I don't see why we have to forget about anything to accommodate 3D.

I think I misread your post. It seemed like you were lumping taking off the physics, the momentum, the multiple paths as being unnecessary. I getcha now.

The only element that can't really work in 3D as far as i can see is spin ball physics. I just can't see how you can make is useful and not awkward in 3D.

[Remynaka]

maybe I'm a moron, but if anything I see this game failing ( thanks to 99.9% of the entire fan base crying about shit that doesn't need to be cried over ) I see people gotten their hopes up and now seeing really only 3 seconds of gameplay people already think the game has failed. I just find it funny, the ones I think will be saying " I told you so" will be the 3D fans. Because the classic fans have done nothing but rip these guys apart, and you know what.... what goes around comes around. Reviewers are gonna slam this with the fact and say " sonic doesn't work on 2D OR 3D sega should kill him etc etc blah blah cookie fans" But thats what I see happening. But I'm a loon... so eh. Just don't let it hit ya move, and enjoy the game when it finally comes out.

[Rusty Spy]

Yeah. Seriously. What's wrong with it being Sonic Rush 3?

I'd be game for that.

It'd knock Sonic 06 right off it's pedestal of 'Biggest Disappointment in Sonic History'.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Black Spy

[Solid SOAP]

It'd knock Sonic 06 right off it's pedestal of 'Biggest Disappointment in Sonic History'.

Because a good 2D platformer is now somehow worse than an absolutely horrendous 3D... [o]thing.

[Mort]

It'd knock Sonic 06 right off it's pedestal of 'Biggest Disappointment in Sonic History'.

The Rush games both sold quite well, were critical successes, and were a blast to play. Hell the Rush games are the only modern Sonic games that were paddled by the public.

[Rusty Spy]

Because a good 2D platformer is now somehow worse than an absolutely horrendous 3D... [o]thing.

The Rush games both sold quite well, were critical successes, and were a blast to play. Hell the Rush games are the only modern Sonic games that were paddled by the public.

It might be good, but that doesn't deter from the fact that with all the MASSIVE hype for how this game will be a wondrous return to the classics, with classic badniks and elements, the story taking place after Sonic 3, and so far everything about this game saying, no SCREAMING classic Sonic, only for it to end up as the exact OPPOSITE, would hit PRETTY FUCKING HARD, ESPECIALLY SINCE THIS GAME IS NAMED SONIC 4.

With Sonic 06, they promised us a "back to teh roots" Sonic game, and instead got the worst Sonic game ever, but it wasn't making any other huge promises besides that. From the very first teaser with the CG of Sonic running and stuff through robots and going Super, and since the gameplay trailer seen showcasing the day-night cycling mechanics with a little gameplay, Sonic's lankier model, and oh hai Silver, Iblis Trigger, Elise, etc etc etc, you could EASILY tell that by "back to roots" they weren't talking about classic roots, and barely Adventure roots if not by a gameplay perspective.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Black Spy

[Solid SOAP]

It might be good, but that doesn't deter from the fact that with all the MASSIVE hype for how this game will be a wondrous return to the classics, with classic badniks and elements, the story taking place after Sonic 3, and so far everything about this game saying, no SCREAMING classic Sonic, only for it to end up as the exact OPPOSITE, would hit PRETTY FUCKING HARD, ESPECIALLY SINCE THIS GAME IS NAMED SONIC 4.

And so far the game looks pretty classic to me, with badniks returning, green hills, sign posts, Robotnik in his hover craft, no boost or speed gimmicks, etc. It's still too early to tell what kind of game this will be but all signs point to one remenisent of Sonic 1 and 2 more than anything.

[Rusty Spy]

And so far the game looks pretty classic to me, with badniks returning, green hills, sign posts, Robotnik in his hover craft, no boost or speed gimmicks, etc. It's still too early to tell what kind of game this will be but all signs point to one remenisent of Sonic 1 and 2 more than anything.

And how would you feel if at the very last minute, WHAM, Sonic 4 takes off the mask to reveal itself to REALLY be, SONIC RUSH 3!

Frankly, the fan base would implode in a very bad way.