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The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom has been announced


Shiny Gems

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Very nice. This looks very good. It appears that Link has vanished, and it is up to Zelda herself to save the kingdom this time. Here, Zelda can copy objects with a rod and use those objects, called echoes.

What do you all think?

Edited by Shiny Gems
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At last, a proper, original new 2D Zelda!  The last one that really counts is A Link Between Worlds over ten years ago, and even that blatantly started life as a Link To The Past remake.  In some respects, we haven't had a wholly new, proper 2D Zelda since Spirit Tracks in 2009...  And they're combining it with a Zelda protagonist game!  I think they might have done better than just throwing a cloak over her usual outfit, but never mind.

The gameplay looks like it's carrying over the experimental, player-driven, non-linear approach of the Breath Of The Wild subseries.  I'd have preferred a more conventional game, but I can't blame them for wanting to experiment.  I look forward to learning more - surely they can't be planning to handle bosses through just throwing rocks and summoning enemy echoes, right?  Perhaps they'll be full-on puzzle experiences...

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Took them long enough. I loved way that that the trailer started with Link wearing his BotW hood and slowly slipping into the void without his face changing from a look of boredom. He must be tired of saving Zelda at this point.

The gameplay looks interesting. It could definitely go two ways though, being either incredibly deep and thoughtful or very shallow and overly simplistic.

What rubbed me up the wrong the way was the second half of the trailer with the voice-over guy. Everything came together to make it look and sound like this is going to be a more casual affair. It felt a bit like a Game for Girls™. That's not helped by the fact that they're using the LAS artstyle, which is very cute and gentle by design. It re-enforces the vibe that they're aiming for. I almost expected the game to be called "Princess Zelda: Showtime!" when they introduced Tri and the Trirod.

I understand that none of these concepts are foreign to the TLOZ series. I could be totally wrong. But it definitely gave me an particular impression that's rather disappointing. Gonna have to hold off before I get excited.

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Very much not a fan of them reusing the artstyle of Link's Awakening Remake, I barely liked it much there. Other than that, I'm over the moon with how the gameplay is shaping up--and having an original 2D Zelda that's not using an old map or is tethered to some gimmicky touch control BS. Goddammit, it looks new, which is about all I can ask for out of a 2D Zelda at this point. I'm really interested to see just how far the echo mechanic can be pushed.

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I'm excited for this; they're kinda delivering on that Zelda 1 styled prototype they used when planning BotW.

Looks like the number of triangles that Tri has determines how many echoes you can summon, with some costing more than others, so you can't solve everything just by spamming infinite objects/enemies. And you'll be able to upgrade your triangle count; he's got 3 in some shots and 4 in others. Wonder if they'll let you summon entire bosses for a high cost at some point.

Is this the first time we've seen both kinds of zora together? Maybe one of the Oracles games did it first, idk.

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38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Is this the first time we've seen both kinds of zora together? Maybe one of the Oracles games did it first, idk.

Oracle of Ages did it first, making a point of differentiating the two as as River Zoras (enemies/original style) and Sea Zoras (friendly/OOT style). It's nice to see that they'll be interacting here. 

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While on one hand this does look interesting in its own right, this seems like a very, very tone-deaf response to the Playable Zelda requests. People don't want to play as Zelda in a game that (gameplay wise) is barely anything like a Zelda game... This kind of gameplay has an entirely different kind of appeal than the rest of the Zelda series.

I mean, I'll get it, because I sometimes like slower, more methodical puzzle-based games, but yeah, anyone that wanted an action-packed adventure as Zelda still isn't getting that...

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31 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

What rubbed me up the wrong the way was the second half of the trailer with the voice-over guy. They make it look and sound like this is going to be a more casual affair. It felt a bit like a Game for Girls™. That's not helped by the fact that they're using the LAS artstyle, which is very cute and gentle by design. It re-enforces free vibe the they're aiming for. I almost expected the game to be called "Princess Zelda: Showtime!" when they dress Tri and the Trirod. 

 

Funny, I had the opposite impression. This seemed to me like an actual, honest-to-goodness main series Zelda installment where you happen to play as the female lead. Sure, the game mechanics are very different from the usual Zelda affair, but that's to be expected; Zelda is not going to play the same way as Link in any realistic capacity, and I like the summoning concept. I just hope they handle the 'manifest objects into the overworld' mechanic a lot better than Epic Mickey: Power of Illusion did...

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11 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Oracle of Ages did it first, making a point of differentiating the two as as River Zoras (enemies/original style) and Sea Zoras (friendly/OOT style). It's to see that they'll be interacting here. 

Right, that's where the whole river zora thing came from...I've barely played that one.

4 minutes ago, Shade Vortex said:

While on one hand this does look interesting in its own right, this seems like a very, very tone-deaf response to the Playable Zelda requests. People don't want to play as Zelda in a game that (gameplay wise) is barely anything like a Zelda game... This kind of gameplay has an entirely different kind of appeal than the rest of the Zelda series.

I mean, I'll get it, because I sometimes like slower, more methodical puzzle-based games, but yeah, anyone that wanted an action-packed adventure as Zelda still isn't getting that...

Puzzle solving is as much a part of Zelda as action, though. This just seems to be tweaking the balance more in favor of puzzles, with an unconventional take on the action. Which seems fitting for the character.

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50 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Puzzle solving is as much a part of Zelda as action, though. This just seems to be tweaking the balance more in favor of puzzles, with an unconventional take on the action. Which seems fitting for the character.

Yeah, but here's the thing, even the combat that is there is very slow and methodical compared to the regular stuff. Not being able to attack things directly inherently has a completely different pace (and appeal) than the normal Zelda combat.

And my point stands: This isn't what the (majority) of Zelda fans meant when they said they wanted playable Zelda.

Designing a game differently to 'fit' a character better is always going to create a divide in the playerbase, let's not pretend otherwise. Would people be happy if they made a Groose game where the only way to fight enemies was to man the Groose cannon and shoot enemies from afar? That sounds like an entirely different genre than Zelda- tower defense.

Edited by Shade Vortex
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It's obviously not identical to other 2D Zeldas, and not everyone is going to love it. But that's the risk you take with any game that isn't exactly identical to the previous ones. BotW reinveted 3D Zelda, not without complaints sure, but most people loved it, and this doesn't seem as radical a change as that. Top down Zelda always put a lot of focus on your tools, just going without a sword isn't hugely different.

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The game looks to me to have some of the sandboxy energy of the Breath Of The Wilds, which I don't particularly care about and was hoping that 2D Zelda, at least, was not going to also transform into.  But it also strikes me that echoes actually potentially facilitate good classic-style dungeon puzzles, if they were to give you unique dungeon echoes with specific properties similar to 2D Zelda tools.  Could go either way.

I just get a very B-team energy from "slap a cloak on Zelda and we're good".  The game feels spin-off-coded.  Again, I'm prepared to be wrong.  Hopeful, even.

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Man, this is kinda frustrating. I love the premise and general ideas of gameplay, but everything else I'm either mixed or kinda negative on. Hopefully more footage will turn me around.

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Mom, for fucks sake, the hero’s name isn’t…oh wait, you’re right this time.

More than 30 years and they made the game accurate to the title.

Edited by CrownSlayers Shadow
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I'll copy/edit most of what I said in a status update, so sorry for repeating if you already read that.

This Zelda game brings me so many concerns...

it looks ok, though it still has that toyish artstyle that I think doesn't fit Zelda that much because it kills the atmosphere in a series where atmosphere is supposed to be important.

My issue with the art style is not the art style itself, but the way how it's presented, as a pseudo-realistic diorama rather than an immersive cute art style. Kirby games are also cute, sometimes even cuter than this, but they never make you feel like you are looking at some fictional representation of a story from outside rather than the actual thing... even when they are made out of clay or fabric, they still make you feel into the game. This artstyle is just not immersive to me.

Regarding the gameplay:

Why didn't they give Zelda a way to defend herself normally, without relying on summoning other creatures or objects? I mean, a couple of spells, something.

I don't like the idea that Zelda is so weak that she can't do anything, but hey, she's lucky that she found a wand that will solve problems for her, while she just watches - it feels like a Sticker Stars like move of throwing logic away in favor of a gimmick.

I like the idea of copying and summoning the enemies you meet, I wanted to see it in a game since a long time, and I even planned to work on an indie game about it at some point in the future (I got this idea by taking inspiration from Adeleine from Kirby).

Though the implementation of said ability in this game doesn't feel right. You can do a lot of cool things as shown by the trailer, but it does feel very gimmicky, you have to select the echoes from a very long menu and as it has been said already, the fighting seems slower and more puzzle oriented. I like this idea but I would have prefered if it was done in parallel with normal fighting. Even Adeleine from Kirby, who I'll make a lot of parallels to, since it's basically the same concept as this game, has a basic melee moveset and doesn't have to rely ONLY on summons in order to fight. The fun of playing as Adeleine in Kirby Star Allies is that you can plan a strategy and summon your minions as a support, while you also fight normally. Here, this sinergy of two ways of fighting merged together seems to be completely absent, and the game forces you to summon stuff (by selecting the echoes through a menu :koco:).

It keeps giving me Sticker Star vibes, bad Sticker Star vibes, sadly.

I appreciate that Ganon in his classic look is the main villain of this game, I think blue pig Ganon deserves more, maybe even be playable in Smash some day.

 

Besides, I'll call this game "Wand of Gamelon" as a joke from now onward.

Edited by Iko
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wow can’t say I relate to any of the cynicism in this thread much, I think it looks really great and the kind of shake up to the formula that feels fresh and interesting, I can’t wait. 

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I just wish it wasn't going for the LAS artstyle and totally innocent vibe. That's something I don't think I'm ever going to warm to. I didn't like it in LAS either. It created a atmosphere of goofiness and childishness that just didn't resonate with me. I couldn't get into the world and the story when it was presented through such a lens. It felt gamey, artificial and manufactured. There's no room interpretation, no depth. When everything is supposed to tug on your heart strings and make you go "d'aww", I stop caring very quickly. It's all prescribed. 

This doesn't have to be the case of cartoonier artstyles. ALBW works brilliantly, in my opinion. And although I don't really care for the look of Wind Waker, it too manages to convey a range of emotions and themes fairly well. 

The gameplay though... I'm not as much cynical as I am simply not yet convinced. How creative are the puzzles surrounding echoes going to be? Will there really be much depth to the system or are we young to be spoonfed solutions in a world where it's difficult to go wrong? Everything about the game's presentation suggests to me that it's not what I'm looking for. When there are so many options, so much "freedom", a game can end up being very poorly balanced and is easiky broken by viable, intended mechanics. You have to kneecap yourself for the game to be fun. TotK has that exact problem. Being able to create echos of basically anything has me more bothered than intrigued. 

Also on a gameplay note... 

The overworld looks worryingly similar in layout to ALTTP/ALBW. As the video above points out, it's not 1:1, but the layout is definitely treading old ground. Just from the perspective of offering a fresh experience, that's already a let down.

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36 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

The gameplay though... I'm not as much cynical as I am simply not yet convinced. How creative are the puzzles surrounding echoes going to be? Will there really be much depth to the system or are we young to be spoonfed solutions in a world where it's difficult to go wrong? Everything about the game's presentation suggests to me that it's not what I'm looking for. 

This is where I'm at, too. As it stands I'm just not sure how compelling a 2D Zelda with freeform puzzle solving can really even be. We'll have to see more but as it stands now, the idea ironically stops exciting me the more I sit on it. 2D Zelda's puzzle design is broadly extremely easy anyway, so I'm not sure Nintendo (or whoever is developing this) is really up to the task of making a 2D Zelda that's not incredibly easy to break with these mechanics. If it's too easy to break, I can't imagine it will remain terribly engaging for long.

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I'm going to add an alternate viewpoint and state that in all honesty, this might actually be the first Zelda game I purchase specifically for myself. I've bought Zelda games as gifts for my brother on various occasions, but never seriously tried one for myself; however, the unique gameplay hook and charming art style has made this one to watch for me. (Maybe it's because I'm a 90's girl and miss my Polly Pockets, but hey. I do me.)

Imagine, a game starring Zelda that appeals to a certain female gamer audience. I would not have honestly expected this, but Nintendo are the kings of left field and by all rights we should have expected not to expect something so it doesn't count.

Edited by Lorekitten
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I'm overall enthusiastic for this, but like others, yeah I'm not too keen on the LA art style here.  Zelda games have always put so much thought into their art styles, looking to evoke a certain mood or theme.  While the choice to use the toy-like diorama style for LA remake was still contentious, I can see the logic behind it - it works for a game as light in mood and as frequently goofy as LA is.  Zelda's first playable headlining adventure should be a big deal - the goofy dream adventure game art style shouldn't be appropriate for it.  It literally cheapens the event of Zelda's protagonist role, because the only reason I can see for re-using it is because they didn't want to spend too much money on this weird experimental entry in the series.  I definitely feel like this is INTENDED as the next mainline series entry, no doubt, but there is some unfortunate spin-off "energy" here that there should not be.

That's kind of nitpicking though, my REAL worry is...

image.png.665073d0710f76fee80004cf6bb6c2ea.png

...that the team have learned absolutely fucking nothing from the rampant criticism of how cumbersome using materials from the "quick" select menu was in TotK.  Oooooh there better be some INNOVATIVE alternate sorting options in those 5 little dots beneath "Last Used".

Edited by JezMM
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13 minutes ago, JezMM said:

 Zelda's first playable headlining adventure should be a big deal - the goofy dream adventure game art style shouldn't be appropriate for it. 

That's ultimately a matter of opinion, and I'll have to agree to disagree there. I think the art style fits quite well for the type of game that Echoes actually is, and while I can't speak for all women, I can speak for myself and I actually find that style appealing for a game starring a female main character.

That being said, it seems obvious to me that the gameplay came first and they chose Zelda as the playable character specifically to match this gameplay mechanic, because it definitely wouldn't have worked quite as well for Link. And who else were they going to choose? Tingle? Hecc, no. He's had like three games already. Give us Zelda.

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The fanart is following a theme of Zelda preparing to hit an enemy with an echo object

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(Fanart by Kira/Kurdupl)

Edited by Sonictrainer
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41 minutes ago, JezMM said:

That's kind of nitpicking though, my REAL worry is...

image.png.665073d0710f76fee80004cf6bb6c2ea.png

...that the team have learned absolutely fucking nothing from the rampant criticism of how cumbersome using materials from the "quick" select menu was in TotK.  Oooooh there better be some INNOVATIVE alternate sorting options in those 5 little dots beneath "Last Used".

That's the thing I liked the least about the trailer, and a thing that could completely ruin the game for me.

That menu is painful even to just look at it, I can't imagine how annoying it would be getting in and out of it every time I want to switch the item/enemy I want to summon, especially when that's the only way I'm allowed to interact with the enemies, and sometimes it's required to traverse the map.

3 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

The overworld looks worryingly similar in layout to ALTTP/ALBW. As the video above points out, it's not 1:1, but the layout is definitely treading old ground. Just from the perspective of offering a fresh experience, that's already a let down.

I didn't notice it but that would kinda suck too, I hope it's not too similar.

I wish they would let Yoshiaki Koizumi direct the Zelda games, I don't like what the Zelda series became since when Eiji Aonuma became the director... as early as Twilight Princess, that game has a lot of fans but I still found it disappointing. The majority of the post Twilight Princess games, I just didn't like them, or at best they were just ok and didn't impress me. I consider the Link's Awakening remake a straight up downgrade from the DX edition of the original game on Gameboy, and not just because of the artstyle.

26 minutes ago, Lorekitten said:

That's ultimately a matter of opinion, and I'll have to agree to disagree there. I think the art style fits quite well for the type of game that Echoes actually is, and while I can't speak for all women, I can speak for myself and I actually find that style appealing for a game starring a female main character.

That being said, it seems obvious to me that the gameplay came first and they chose Zelda as the playable character specifically to match this gameplay mechanic, because it definitely wouldn't have worked quite as well for Link. And who else were they going to choose? Tingle? Hecc, no. He's had like three games already. Give us Zelda.

As much as I want to agree with you, I just can't. This series had games which looked like this:

screen18.jpg

Cute, colorful, joyful, unique. The style of the remake of Link's Awakening is cute too, but it does not have the same personality that some old Zelda games did have. Il looks very casual, almost as if it was a "Mii" game. Like if you take the Miyazaki movies and redraw them in a generic 3D cartoon style, they would lose a big part of their charm.

I'm glad that you like it, though there's a reason if many fans of the series aren't fond of it.

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I mean, I'm not going to argue that the game couldn't possibly look better than it currently looks, or that it wouldn't be an improvement if it did; I'm just saying that I do like what I've seen of how the game looks thus far and as such I'm not complaining.

That being said, we've only seen one trailer and a few locations thus far. There's still time for them to potentially surprise us.

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Also wanna say I have no problems with the art style and I’m glad to see it again, it just looks really pleasant and pretty when playing it then it does in videos, it’s cute and fun and so I don’t think it being used for Zelda’s first adventure is a issue

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