May some in-game dialogues reflect how Sonic is handled by SEGA ?

[superman43]

I was thinking many times about why exactly are some dialogues in Sonic games, particularly Sonic with Eggman as if in real world it was a dialogue between Sonic (or Sonic Team, maybe ?) and SEGA. What do you think about it ?

Additional thing... Do you think that the characters should have their mouth in the center (as they did in in-game cutscenes of Sonic ´06 and how for example Tails has it now) or should all characters (besides Eggman) have the side-mouth ?

[BaronGrackle]

You have an example?

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

19 minutes ago, superman43 said:

I was thinking many times about why exactly are some dialogues in Sonic games, particularly Sonic with Eggman as if in real world it was a dialogue between Sonic (or Sonic Team, maybe ?) and SEGA. What do you think about it ?

Additional thing... Do you think that the characters should have their mouth in the center (as they did in in-game cutscenes of Sonic ´06 and how for example Tails has it now) or should all characters (besides Eggman) have the side-mouth ?

...What do these paragraphs have to do with each other? You shouldn't have a topic about two completely unrelated things.

I also agree with BaronGrackle. Without examples I don't really know what you're talking about.

[Blue Blood]

Definitely. If this scene from Forces isn't proof that SEGA is actively trying to kill off Sonic, I don't know what is.

 

[superman43]

2 hours ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

...What do these paragraphs have to do with each other? You shouldn't have a topic about two completely unrelated things.

I also agree with BaronGrackle. Without examples I don't really know what you're talking about.

Just like... in many games it changed from Eggman defeating Sonic to outright destroying Sonic. It´s just seems to me that they are trying to be like total Eggman, that´s why they changed his character primarily.

Take for example Sonic Colors: "Just say you want to destroy us and stop embarrasing yourself."

Sonic Generations: "You are not in the position to demand anything, you nasty little pincushion." (quite a turn from horrid little hedgehog in Colors)

I don´t say that the English scriptwriters did this because of SEGA, and yes I know that Pontac and Graff do English localization, but it seems just weird that so many quotes are that off. But still I think there is some influence from SEGA on the scripts. 

Or maybe it is just because every f.....g Sonic game since Unleashed literally rips-off Sonic´s world. Or... sorry... since Sonic ´06, the beginning of modern era.

 

[RedFox99]

I do find it amusing how Modern Eggman tells Classic Eggman that Sonic's friends are insignificant as it seems like the English writers are lampshading how little stuff the others did in Generations.

[superman43]

3 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

I do find it amusing how Modern Eggman tells Classic Eggman that Sonic's friends are insignificant.

This leads me to believe that Classic Eggman and Classic Sonic in Generations are from the beginning of Sonic 1 or (at the furthest) end of Sonic 2, where Classic Eggman didn´t know Tails much.

[Tarnish]

I think you are reading too much into those dialogs. I doubt the original writers or the people doing the localization give enough of a shit about either Sonic or SEGA to inject hidden messages like that. They were hired, wrote some shit they obviously have barely any knowledge or interest in then moved on with their lives without a second thought or care.

As for the side mouth vs center mouth...god I hate the side mouth thing, it's horrible. It works on still images from certain angles, but once you start moving the camera or character around while he's talking, it looks so stupid and it's terrible to watch. They have to move around his mouth to make sure it always faces the camera, otherwise it looks like he's talking without moving his mouth..plus it has no consistency whatsoever...Sonic, Shadow, Silver and Knuckles have side mouths, while Tails, Amy and Vector have center mouths...why, what is the fucking logic to that?

Sonic Adventure 2 and Heroes are to this day my favorites regarding how the characters talk as they don't suffer from this awful morbidity.

[superman43]

43 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I think you are reading too much into those dialogs. I doubt the original writers or the people doing the localization give enough of a shit about either Sonic or SEGA to inject hidden messages like that. They were hired, wrote some shit they obviously have barely any knowledge or interest in then moved on with their lives without a second thought or care.

As for the side mouth vs center mouth...god I hate the side mouth thing, it's horrible. It works on still images from certain angles, but once you start moving the camera or character around while he's talking, it looks so stupid and it's terrible to watch. They have to move around his mouth to make sure it always faces the camera, otherwise it looks like he's talking without moving his mouth..plus it has no consistency whatsoever...Sonic, Shadow, Silver and Knuckles have side mouths, while Tails, Amy and Vector have center mouths...why, what is the fucking logic to that?

Sonic Adventure 2 and Heroes are to this day my favorites regarding how the characters talk as they don't suffer from this awful morbidity.

In-game cutscenes didn´t have the side mouth until Sonic ´06. And even Sonic as Werehog in Unleashed had his mouth centered. CGI cutscenes had the side mouth all the time.

[Tarnish]

1 minute ago, superman43 said:

In-game cutscenes didn´t have the side mouth until Sonic ´06. And even Sonic as Werehog in Unleashed had his mouth centered. CGI cutscenes had the side mouth all the time.

That's what I was saying, Sonic Adventure 2 and Heroes had proper center mouths which I like far more than the nonsense that is the side mouth.

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Tarnish said:

...Vector have center mouths...why, what is the fucking logic to that?

Vector is literally designed with a different mouth, same with Big da cat...should've just left it to the kids and brought up Charmy or Cream instead.

[Salamander]

Yes, their hands are tied with Vector.  Can't exactly give him a side mouth.

The whole side mouth business is rather strange.  I always interpreted it as a stylistic point in the art - that Sonic's mouth was only open into a grin at that point, but that he did indeed have a full mouth across his whole muzzle.  It should be a context-dependent affectation.

[Tarnish]

41 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Vector is literally designed with a different mouth, same with Big da cat...should've just left it to the kids and brought up Charmy or Cream instead.

I admit I shouldn't have added Vector to that list, but that doesn't really change the fact the rest of the characters are an inconsistent mess. It's not even consistent between species, as Amy has a center mouth while still being a hedgehog like Sonic..

People love making fun of Sonic Adventure 1's mouth animations, but if I'm perfectly honest, the side mouth phenomenon for me is on the same level with that.

[superman43]

31 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I admit I shouldn't have added Vector to that list, but that doesn't really change the fact the rest of the characters are an inconsistent mess. It's not even consistent between species, as Amy has a center mouth while still being a hedgehog like Sonic..

This is maybe the only CGI cutscene where Sonic has centered mouth (at least for a while). Yes, it is Sonic ´06.

 

[Tarnish]

18 minutes ago, superman43 said:

This is maybe the only CGI cutscene where Sonic has centered mouth (at least for a while). Yes, it is Sonic ´06.

 

I don't really get what is your point by showing that.

[superman43]

34 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I don't really get what is your point by showing that.

The one moment I found in CGI cutscenes that doesn´t have Sonic with side mouth.

[StaticMania]

3 hours ago, Tarnish said:

I admit I shouldn't have added Vector to that list, but that doesn't really change the fact the rest of the characters are an inconsistent mess. It's not even consistent between species, as Amy has a center mouth while still being a hedgehog like Sonic..

People love making fun of Sonic Adventure 1's mouth animations, but if I'm perfectly honest, the side mouth phenomenon for me is on the same level with that.

The "logic" is anyone younger than Sonic has middle mouth, and Sonic as well as the older crowd has side mouth except for those who aren't designed to. I was gonna say it didn't apply to Cream's mother, but it actually does.

Even in 2D art, the younger characters will have their mouths closer to the middle some of the time.

[superman43]

4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

The "logic" is anyone younger than Sonic has middle mouth, and Sonic as well as the older crowd has side mouth except for those who aren't designed to. I was gonna say it didn't apply to Cream's mother, but it actually does.

Even in 2D art, the younger characters will have their mouths closer to the middle some of the time.

So, anyone in age up to Amy + Blaze, Vector, Big = middle mouth.
Silver and the rest of cast older than him = side mouth. 

Right ?

[StaticMania]

Yep, that's pretty much been a consistent deal.

[JezMM]

Cream's key art from her debut game:

 

Side mouths have nothing to do with character age, it's just an art thing.  The artists draw their mouths wherever "looks best" for the particular pose and expression they're drawing.

The in-game animators have tried to replicate this concept from time to time, but they haven't quite nailed down any consistent rules for it to make it look right in 3D.  The other thing is that artists can "cheat" in 2D art - it's easy to draw interesting poses or expressions that wouldn't make sense in a 3D space.  While animators can also "cheat" by deforming pieces of the character in ways that don't look weird from the correct camera angle for cut-scenes etc, it's much more time-consuming and costly to do compared to standard character animation.

[StaticMania]

I said "even" in 2D art it tends to happen...I wasn't saying it was a guaranteed thing. But it's a consistent thing anyway specifically to the 3D models that the younger characters have middle mouth.