Super Forms in Sonic Mania Discussion

[Detective Kaito]

Ever since Sonic shifted to 3D, Sega had this rule that only male hedgehogs are allowed to have a Super form. Of course, Sega/Sonic Team have never outright said that this is the case, but we can assume so because of what happens in various Sonic games.

In Sonic Adventure 2, even though Sonic, Knuckles, and Shadow all had access to the Chaos Emeralds, Sonic Team decided that only Sonic and Shadow would go Super.

In the next game, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Team wrote themselves into a corner. Now that Team Sonic had to consist of Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles they decided to give Tails and Knuckles these super shields because they couldn't make Sonic the only playable character in the final boss since it would contradict with the rest of the game, gameplay wise.

In Sonic 06, Sonic decided to let Silver go Super for some reason. I understand why he chose Shadow, but why Silver? There's no story reason for it.

Obviously, Sonic Team/Sega doesn't want anyone other than the male hedgehogs to get a Super form. I guess Blaze has a super form, but she's an exception as she doesn't use the Chaos Emeralds to attain that form.

So the question is, do you think Super forms for either Tails or Knuckles will return in Sonic Mania? Do you think Sega will finally take away that stupid limitation they put on Tails and Knuckles for over 2 decades now?

If not, then what would be the point of collecting the emeralds with Tails or Knuckles in Sonic Mania? A different cutscene at the end? Tails and Knuckles not getting back their super forms would be very unfortunate, seeing as Sonic has the new drop dash, the elemental shield abilities, and a Super form. Granted, no Super forms have been confirmed for Mania at all, but we can assume that at least Super Sonic will be in it mainly because there are special stage rings in the Sonic Mania demo's we've seen over the last year.

[Forte-Metallix]

I like to imagine that Mania takes place in the "Classic-only" universe, since Sonic 4 uses the Modern designs and is said to take place immediately after 3&K, and that's the only time Mania could happen- Not to mention the Hooligan cameos in Mirage Saloon, and they're confirmed to not exist in the Modern universe. (Granted, that doesn't explain their cameos in Generations, but still)

So I think letting Tails and Knuckles go Super in Mania would be perfectly fine. (Though I feel Super Emeralds would be a bit much. Let's face it- they were really redundant.) But I don't think we'll be seeing them for the same reason we'll never see the Classic Chaotix again- Sonic Team doesn't think they fit in with the current "brand image"- which is just a fancy way of saying they wrote themselves into a corner.

[molul]

I'm sure they'll all have super forms. 

[Diogenes]

Personally I prefer strongly limiting who gets Super forms. The more Super forms you hand out, the less special they feel, and eventually you hit a point where you wonder, if it's so easy and common, why every game doesn't end with the entire heroic cast zipping around and smashing shit like DBZ characters. If it was up to me, I'd limit Super forms to just Sonic, Shadow, and Blaze; they're the only characters that I think have either a meaningful enough connection to a set of emeralds and/or a significant enough thematic reason for them to be able to go Super.

So as far as Mania goes, I'd prefer that only Sonic goes Super, if anyone. Tails really has no particular reason that he should be able to go Super, and while Knuckles is borderline due to being the Master Emerald's guardian, they've been downplaying that for years, I've never felt he had any especially strong connections to the Chaos Emeralds, and since he's transitioned from rival to unambiguous ally I don't think there's a strong thematic argument for him having a Super form.

[Pawn]

I can see Mania using the forms in a similar way to S3&K, in that Super Sonic is the only one to appear in the story, while the other two are simply a bonus.

And I'd be happy with that.

[Salamander]

Yes, I think that Super Tails and Super Knuckles are essentially just fun bonuses that exist to give Tails and Knuckles the same gameplay reward for beating the special stages as Sonic - in much the same way as the Super Emeralds and Hyper forms only exist to give you a reward for doing two lots of special stages.  As Chaos Emeralds have become more and more a set of plot devices rather than optional collectibles, Super forms have become more limited, but that consideration probably won't apply to Mania - not since Sonic Team seem insistent on treating Classic and Modern as separate franchises with separate rules.  What I expect from Mania is most likely for all three to get Super forms, or, failing that, just Sonic.  (I think they'll completely ignore Super Tails having formerly been Super-Emerald-only; they wouldn't give you Super Sonic and Super Knuckles but no Super Tails.  It only worked that way before because of the disparity in when Tails and Knuckles became playable in S3&K.)

[TheOcelot]

I'm confident both Sonic and Knuckles will have super-forms for Mania. They both had super-forms in the original versions of Sonic 2 & 3 respectively. Knux could turn super in the "Knuckles in Sonic 2" lock-on. Crucially in the recent mobile remaster of Sonic 2 both Sonic and Knuckles could turn super after collecting the emeralds but Tails couldn't, just like in the original version (only via debug-mode). I suspect Iizuka-san was keen to keep to the original canon. So I'm pretty sure this will also apply for Mania. Hopefully I'm wrong and they all get super forms.

The Super form itself should pretty much have the visual appearance and moveset of Hyper Sonic. Since the Hyper forms have been labelled as non-canon I really can't see them returning, but there's no reason why they can't give Super Sonic the same appearance & move-set. I.e. Hyper Sonic could automatically breath underwater and pressing jump twice would destroy all badniks on screen instantly.

Still kind of hoping for a Super-Eggman boss fight 

 

[Detective Kaito]

21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Personally I prefer strongly limiting who gets Super forms. The more Super forms you hand out, the less special they feel, and eventually you hit a point where you wonder, if it's so easy and common, why every game doesn't end with the entire heroic cast zipping around and smashing shit like DBZ characters. If it was up to me, I'd limit Super forms to just Sonic, Shadow, and Blaze; they're the only characters that I think have either a meaningful enough connection to a set of emeralds and/or a significant enough thematic reason for them to be able to go Super.

So as far as Mania goes, I'd prefer that only Sonic goes Super, if anyone. Tails really has no particular reason that he should be able to go Super, and while Knuckles is borderline due to being the Master Emerald's guardian, they've been downplaying that for years, I've never felt he had any especially strong connections to the Chaos Emeralds, and since he's transitioned from rival to unambiguous ally I don't think there's a strong thematic argument for him having a Super form.

Isn't that kinda unbalanced though? Sonic is getting a new move, which is the drop dash. On top of that, he has 3 different elemental shield abilities he can use and a Super form. Tails and Knuckles have no additions to their move set, and now their Super forms might get taken away.

Also, Tails and Knuckles got their Super forms before Shadow or Blaze did, it just doesn't seem fair to take it away from them.

I know Sonic is the main character and all, but this just seems like a step backward compared to Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Collecting the Chaos Emeralds with Tails and Knuckles serves no point besides maybe a good ending, but eh, whatever. I'm just bitching at this point.

[JosepHenry]

 I think the three should have super forms. Even Tails because it would be fun to abuse with the Flicky army returning.

I don't care about plot consistency, if you give me some fun extra.

[Forte-Metallix]

IIRC, Super Tails was added into Debug Mode of Christian Whitehead's Sonic 1 port. He only needed the Chaos Emeralds and worked the same as in 3&K, except he didn't have his Super Flickies.

I think that and Super Knuckles would work just fine- They would be a reward on the same level as Super Sonic without making any one character feel inferior to the others.

[Diogenes]

37 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

Isn't that kinda unbalanced though? Sonic is getting a new move, which is the drop dash. On top of that, he has 3 different elemental shield abilities he can use and a Super form. Tails and Knuckles have no additions to their move set, and now their Super forms might get taken away.

Yes, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with unbalancing things towards the series' main character, within reason. If you consider the drop dash balancing out Tails and Knuckles' unique abilities, all Sonic would have over them are the shield powers (which override the drop dash, so it's more about choice than strictly adding abilities) and a Super form, and I don't think that's too unfair.

37 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

Also, Tails and Knuckles got their Super forms before Shadow or Blaze did, it just doesn't seem fair to take it away from them.

I don't feel like seniority really counts for much on this. Plus Super Tails was dubiously canon to start (can't go Super with the Chaos Emeralds, only with the now-discarded Super Emeralds, no Doomsday or equivalent canon appearance, hell solo Tails playthroughs as a whole aren't really canon) and we've never seen Tails or Knuckles go Super outside of the classics in spite of having at least a couple of opportunities, so it's not like Mania would be doing anything radical by not having them.

37 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

I know Sonic is the main character and all, but this just seems like a step backward compared to Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Collecting the Chaos Emeralds with Tails and Knuckles serves no point besides maybe a good ending, but eh, whatever. I'm just bitching at this point.

Rather than a step backwards, I consider it a refinement. It's like dropping the Super Emeralds and Hyper forms; it's technically less content, but it's cleaner, more focused, and easier to work around.

And who knows, maybe they could come up with some other kind of reward for Tails and Knuckles.

[FReaK]

Who said the Chaos emeralds are even in the game? I remember iizuka talking about an item equally as important as the emeralds a while ago, maybe you collect those in the special stages? Maybe eggman has all the emeralds, Plot wise? 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

For the record, I'm pretty sure Super Emeralds were already confirmed to not appear.

Personally, I'm torn. I want Mania to remain loyal to the classic way of doing things, so that makes me want Sonic and Knuckles to both have super forms and Tails not to, but that would also feel a little weird and unfair. One way they could possibly get around that is having Tails still have to do something special he couldn't do in S3&K (such as get a special item? I dunno) to enter his super form that Sonic and Knuckles don't have to do, indicating that somehow the Super Emeralds made up for that deficit automatically and Tails simply doesn't have a hyper form, meaning they only turned him super. But if Super Tails does appear and is accessed exactly like Sonic and Knuckles' super forms, we can just chalk that up to non-Sonic classic super forms being considered more like "goodies" than canon things, which I accept and think is fine these days even though I probably used to be annoyed about it.

On the other hand, they could also just make Sonic have a super form and Tails and Knuckles not have any. I would be fine with this as, like I said, I don't mind the other super forms being non-canon. The only issue would be the gameplay imbalance created, which hasn't been an issue in the modern era due to super forms being limited to final bosses and/or Sonic being the only playable character. I do think this is a valid issue because it almost goes beyond "abilities" and is an issue of major gameplay mechanics being absent depending on who you play. But overall, it's not that big a deal since again, other super forms can just be considered "extra". At the end of the day, it's not such a bad thing for the main character to have something special all his own.

So basically what I'm saying is, any configuration of characters possessing or lacking super forms that I might expect them to do (Sonic only, Sonic and Knuckles, all three) has its own justification, even though they all have their own minor weak points or difficulties, so I would be OK with any of them really. lol.

[Forte-Metallix]

44 minutes ago, FReaK said:

Who said the Chaos emeralds are even in the game? I remember iizuka talking about an item equally as important as the emeralds a while ago, maybe you collect those in the special stages? Maybe eggman has all the emeralds, Plot wise? 

Well, there's this official artwork:

And considering collecting these things has been a part of every main-series game (aside from CD), I think it's safe to assume they'll be here, too.

[Milo]

I used to be in favor of seeing Tails and Knuckles get Super forms again, but I don't really care about that notion anymore. Wouldn't really be bothered if Sonic was the only one with a Super form in Mania.

But with that said, I'd say I'm pretty much over Super forms in general by this point. I'd like to see new forms for once that harbored different abilities--and if not necessarily with Sonic (since Super forms have pretty much been a staple of him since Sonic 2), seeing them with Tails or Knuckles would be a decent start. That goes for the Chaos Emeralds too, I liked how the non-main Genesis Sonic games focused on other powerful gems, like the Time Stones in CD and the Chaos Rings in Knuckles Chaotix.

[Endy]

There is no reason Super Tails and Super Knuckles should be absent from Sonic Mania, it'd be a very silly thing to exclude, especially since chaos emeralds will probably function the same as they did in the classics. The only way I could see them not being in the game is if Sonic Team was anal about the 'only male hedgehogs get super forms' thing.

What I'm wondering is if they'll keep Hyper Sonic in some capacity.

[molul]

I disagree with limiting the super forms to certain characters. I mean, the point is that Sonic gets the emeralds and their energy makes him go Super, right?

So the key is the chaos emeralds' energy. Thus, it makes sense that anyone who has them all is able to go Super. This was somehow coherent in classic games: even Mecha Sonic got Super. The error was that Tails didn't, until Super Emeralds.

Also, another error is that Knuckles could have gone Super when Sonic got to Angel Island and Knuckles stole the emeralds from him. The game could have ended there with Knuckles instantly smashing Sonic XDDD This could have been fixed by not making Knuckles stealing the emeralds, but rather teleporting them to the Special Stages.

Still, I like the idea of anyone being able to go Super, and focus the ability on the emeralds, not on species (why a hedgehog can go Super and not an echidna? seriously) or on some kind of "chosen one" boring cliche. On Dragon Ball it made sense because it wasn't the dragon balls, it was Son Goku's species. Sonic got a different approach, so the same rules shouldn't apply.

 

 

[Mark1]

Personally think it'd be terribly inconsistent with future games (chronologically) like Sonic Heroes. Pretty sure they were confirmed to be non canon (need to find that interview where the Super Emeralds were discussed as such)

Only having Super Sonic wouldn't be a bad thing or a major loss for me, the Super Emeralds only felt like an award for buying and playing both Sonic 3 and Knuckles together as one. 

I wouldn't say no to the possibility of extra stuff to look for after collecting the Chaos Emeralds though (so as to power up Tails and Knuckles, pleasing fans of both characters).

We still know so little of this game before release it's incredible.

[Diogenes]

7 hours ago, molul said:

I disagree with limiting the super forms to certain characters. I mean, the point is that Sonic gets the emeralds and their energy makes him go Super, right?

So the key is the chaos emeralds' energy. Thus, it makes sense that anyone who has them all is able to go Super. This was somehow coherent in classic games: even Mecha Sonic got Super. The error was that Tails didn't, until Super Emeralds.

Obviously you need the emeralds/their energy to go Super, but that's not necessarily the only requirement. And you can't say it's coherent in the classics and then dismiss one case as an error when we're only dealing with a sample size of four; that Tails couldn't go Super with the Chaos Emeralds across both games seems very deliberate. Plus Mecha didn't have a traditional Super form anyway, since he used the Master Emerald and needed to repeatedly recharge, so I'm not entirely convinced that that should count.

7 hours ago, molul said:

Still, I like the idea of anyone being able to go Super, and focus the ability on the emeralds, not on species (why a hedgehog can go Super and not an echidna? seriously) or on some kind of "chosen one" boring cliche. On Dragon Ball it made sense because it wasn't the dragon balls, it was Son Goku's species. Sonic got a different approach, so the same rules shouldn't apply.

I definitely agree that it shouldn't be a matter of species or "destiny", at least, but it really doesn't sit right with me that you could drop the emeralds into any random person's lap and they'd be able to wield godlike power.

[Osmium]

You know, I'm starting to wish more that Super Sonic was kept as this novelty thing that only Sonic could do and it was treated as this really wacky thing that was clearer than ever a blatant homage (how he got more muscular and his spines reflected a SSJ's more in Sonic 2). It feels a lot more fun that way. Now it's become this complicated thing that's treated pretty seriously in-series that others can do and now there's debates about who can do it and why and who can't, and ugh. I dunno man. 

[Indigo Rush]

The "Super" pun only works with Sonic, anyway. Supersonic. As in above sonic speed. Hypersonic works the same way, too. Apply that word to any other character, the pun fails. 

I hate super forms. They killed the running joke.

[Detective Kaito]

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

The "Super" pun only works with Sonic, anyway. Supersonic. As in above sonic speed. Hypersonic works the same way, too. Apply that word to any other character, the pun fails. 

I hate super forms. They killed the running joke.

You hate Super forms because they ruined a silly pun? OK.

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I definitely agree that it shouldn't be a matter of species or "destiny", at least, but it really doesn't sit right with me that you could drop the emeralds into any random person's lap and they'd be able to wield godlike power.

 

But this is not what's happening. All they need to do is give back Super forms to characters that already had them over 20 years ago, there are no new Super forms being introduced. If they start giving Amy or Espio a Super form then I would be agreeing with you.

[Diogenes]

7 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

But this is not what's happening.

But it is what molul was talking about, and that's who I was responding to.

[Indigo Rush]

1 hour ago, Detective Kaito said:

You hate Super forms because they ruined a silly pun? OK.

Yes, I cannot stress how serious an issue this is to me. 

[Feanor]

I'm hoping that everybody is able to turn into their super form. I really couldn't care less about what the story explanation is for it or if there even is an explanation. Being able to turn super with Tails and Knuckles in 3K was a nice little bonus and I don't really see why they wouldn't have them in Mania considering it's supposed to be a sequel to 3 and Knuckles. 

I'm not expecting Hyper Sonic though considering he's never shown up or been mentioned since his debut.