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*(What If We Got A Satam/Archie Runners Game?)*


Chris Knopps

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Rise of Lyric was an appeal people who actually play Sonic video games, but simply those who are either young and more susceptible to Boom's creative devices and existing Sonic fans who wanted something different. However, SatAM fans have been defined in this argument as people who literally have no interest in the Sonic video games at all, hence why it makes less sense to target them with a full-fledged spin-off game at the expense of audiences who are both gamers and yet not necessarily SatAM fans.

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The Sonic fanbase is has several points views of what should be a sonic game no matter the direction took the franchise always will be complaints, plus a good game is a good game no matter what characters have, as I said before the spin-off can work if take the time to deliver a good pruduct.

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I have no problem with some other media characters cameo appearing in a basic spin off game like Runners or some party/racing game with loose or little story, they've already put in Sticks since the game requires little to no continuity or establishment, just play as her (I'm really hoping Gamma gets in despite standing by maintaining his death, that's how much leeway the game has).

I could see issues with the Satam/Archie cast however because they're examples of evolution and inconsistent depiction. They're not easy to adapt characters like Sticks, who has been in only one consistent interpretation, has a very simplistic character dynamic and backstory and is and always was pretty uniform enough to the SEGA style to be easy to implement. A lot of people have differing opinions of how the SatAm/Archie cast would be depicted in the games, eg. following the current Archie revamp or abiding by pre-reboot or even the original cartoon, and if SEGA sticks to one, or even makes a whole new one of their own, that'll likely become THE definitive version, with other continuities such as Archie having to rework according to it.

That's a pretty neat picture though, give Bunnie her retro cyborg limbs and I'd likely take to those versions in Runners myself.

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Given that current Archie is more game-centric, I wouldn't really mind it. And while a lot of fans don't care for SatAM due to it being discontinued for 20 years, if they were to show up in the games, there would be an explosion of praise towards their revival...followed by bitterness of those who don't want them around. Then again, the fandom has always had such self-absorbed entities in it no matter the canon since the franchise dark age.

That said, that still comes with a slew of problems one would have to work on. The comics themselves had to restructure its entire universe to make itself work well as a coherent setting as a result of a reboot - you'd need to do just that to make it work for the current games. A cameo would be relatively harmless tho, and if that's all being asked I don't see the problem. I doubt it'll happen, but even if they hypothetically did get even that, I can't see it going beyond that given how things are.

Now, I for one would rather the Archie canon build itself into a greater sub-franchise akin to Boom. It already amalgamates things from the games and cartoons along with it's own unique elements and characters, so why not that instead? I'd love to see an Archie Sonic cartoon for those who want more intense action and a revival and retooling of their nostalgic past into a more modern and active use that the comics have done already - and I want to see the Egg Bosses get more love, especially Conquering Storm. :wub:

That, and it won't intrude on the main games anymore than Boom has...although depending on its success, it could end up swallowing up the games given it being an amalgamation of material from multiple canons and surging from there. And that I wouldn't have any problem with as far as storytelling goes.

Edit: Also,

9 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

"They're better written than the game cast and deserve to be in the games more than most of the game characters do."

Archie fans do not say this. None that I've heard given how niche the comics are - they say that about EVERY character in the comics,including the game cast (although even I'd say some parts are questionable). They instead say that the comics themselves are better written than the games, mainly because the comics have done things such as making them love characters they absolutely despise in the games (at least by comparison), most prominently those likeSilver, Big the Cat, and even the Deadly Six.

And that's on top of the fact that even Achie fans will admit the comics have been poorly written in the past before Ian Flynn came up as head writer.

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How in the world is better characterization divorced entirely from making people enjoy characters that they despised in another canon?

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28 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

How in the world is better characterization divorced entirely from making people enjoy characters that they despised in another canon?

I don't think that's what he said.

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He said Archie fans absolutely do not say that their cast of characters- either individually or as a whole- are better written than the games' (something I literally don't believe is something that has never happened). He did however go on to say that they say the comics are better written as a whole; however, the sticking point is that he said that this has resulted in characterization where even despised characters like Silver, Big, and Omega are more tolerable (hence why I don't believe it). How is this argument mutually-exclusive from what I said?

Edited by Nepenthe
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The phrasing threw me off, that's why.

And yeah. That's really the case. People actually like Silver, Big, and Omega in the comics. They're welcome additions to the cast. Maybe try giving the recent ones a read? Because I do enjoy the SEGA characters in the comics, moreso than I do the side-cast.

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Yeah...that really wasn't what I was saying.

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

He said Archie fans absolutely do not say that their cast of characters- either individually or as a whole- are better written than the games' (something I literally don't believe is something that has never happened). He did however go on to say that they say the comics are better written as a whole; however, the sticking point is that he said that this has resulted in characterization where even despised characters like Silver, Big, and Omega are more tolerable (hence why I don't believe it). How is this argument mutually-exclusive from what I said?

...you phrased that hella poorly then, because that's not how they group characters in the Archie canon.

I thought you meant that they said that the Archie characters (like maybe non-game characters such as Sally, Antoine, Bunnie, or maybe the Archie exclusives like the Egg Bosses etc) are better written than the game characters (i.e. Shadow, Tails, Rouge, Amy, etc who are also in the comics), which wasn't helped when you claimed Archie fans saying they [Archie characters] "deserve to be in the games more than most of the game characters do." That's what I mean that they don't say that and instead say that the comics and everyone in them, whether they've been in the games or not, were better written than that of the games themselves (e.g. Archie!Big the Cat is better written than Game!Big the Cat).

If you meant literally everyone in the Archie-canon, including the game characters, it doesn't help the confusion given that Archie fans generally associate the characters based on their origins (SatAM/AoSTH/Cartoons, Game series, and Archie Exclusives) more than them being in the comics.

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I can't even agree with that assessment, I'd say several of the game characters were written differently to their counterparts, not better (Silver's just been worse for me), and the Archie cast have muted personalities compared to the game characters so they wouldn't hold up as well there either. 

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1 minute ago, Detective Reptiles said:

I can't even agree with that assessment, I'd say several of the game characters were written differently to their counterparts, not better (Silver's just been worse for me), and the Archie cast have muted personalities compared to the game characters so they wouldn't hold up as well there either. 

Well, BOOM mutated them just as much, if not more-so, very, VERY blatantly...

I wouldn't say Archie has done it on the level BOOM has. As a random comparison.

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1 minute ago, Detective Reptiles said:

I just outright ignore Boom, so that's not really relevant to what I'm saying. 

Nonetheless, it IS a point to be brought up in this.

The characters in the Archie universe might be different than the game counterparts, but in general they stick to what the characters have always been about unlike BOOM that 360's/flips tables on everything you knew about the cast. If the BOOM franchise can do that and people say "best thing ever" going by current trends on said franchise, I see no reason why there should be quarrels over characterizations in Archie which in general stick to what the series has always consisted of for the most part, just with more depth/oomph to the plots/characteristics.

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...No, it's not, because I don't care what other people are saying about Boom. I'm assessing the characters on my level, and I consider them interpreted differently in a lot, if not most cases (Omega is a prime example; he's not more deep, he has a completely different personality). 

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1 minute ago, Detective Reptiles said:

...No, it's not, because I don't care what other people are saying about Boom. I'm assessing the characters on my level, and I consider them interpreted differently in a lot, if not most cases (Omega is a prime example; he's not more deep, he has a completely different personality). 

Well, I guess consider it as a "level up" then... Ha ha, sorry...

But if you've issues with Archie representations, I really suggesting getting a good look at the BOOM cartoon.

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You're assuming that I haven't, and that it's not the bulk of why I ignore it to begin with (moreso because those interpretations lead to more comedy that I don't find interesting). 

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All I meant to say is that there are some people who believe that the main Archie-exclusive cast is better written than the game-exclusive cast (again, I don't see where this is actually being contested; including the Archie versions of the game cast doesn't change the nature of this statement). This was inherently implied due to the fact that this topic- and subsequently my whole post- was talking about introducing these characters (Sally, Rotor, Bunnie, etc.) into the games.

But- and it's a big but- the ultimate reality is that I brought that up as nothing more than one example of three hypothetical attitudes someone could take in an imagined scenario where the Archie-exclusive cast actually did show up in a spin-off mobile game, which was to illustrate the potential issues (and the actual point that matters) concerning demand of Archie-exclusive content being introduced into the main games. So why the fuck this is being contested is once again beyond me.

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I guess I am one of the minority that doesn't like how Archie portrays some of the game characters like Rouge, Silver, Omega and even Sonic. Big is ok, Amy is eeeeegh getting better in the recent ones. I feel they try to make the characters more "deep" and end up making them so different from what they're supposed to be in the game. But this is coming from someone who only play the Japanese version :P Rouge is more kind, Omega doesn't say what he says in the comic, Silver isn't that dumb, and Sonic is more free.

On topic, I prefer archie characters stay out. I don't hate them, but its unnecessary. As Vertikins say, most of the archie cast is who they are because of the special universe they are in where Eggman took over most of the world and have mobians with bombs embedded working for him, and Sonic and his friends are official member of a freedom fighting organization and travel around the world as a formal mission to save everyone. Take that away and you lose their attractiveness. 


BOOM is special because SEGA themselves created it as an official spin-off series holding the leash in its production. And it's a completely different universe (parallel world?) so it's ok if the characters' personality are different, unlike Archie where the universe is based on and and incorporate the modern Sonic series into their story. If they add Archie characters, most people will assume they are part of the canon timeline and then think everything that happened in the comic is game canon. Don't forget SEGA tried to eliminate the archie characters from existence and it was only after Archie redesigned them and promised to follow the mandate that they allowed them to stay.

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22 minutes ago, Detective Reptiles said:

I can't even agree with that assessment, I'd say several of the game characters were written differently to their counterparts, not better (Silver's just been worse for me)

Honestly, compared to what the botched characterizations the games delivered after SA2 and before Unleashed, those differences themselves are a lot more reasonably characterized than their game counterparts. I'd rather have Archie Silver who makes mistakes based on his own research and has reservations and dignity than Game Silver who listens to a complete stranger at almost face value in his intro and comes off as whiny.

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14 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Honestly, compared to what the botched characterizations the games delivered after SA2 and before Unleashed, those differences themselves are a lot more reasonably characterized than their game counterparts. I'd rather have Archie Silver who makes mistakes based on his own research and has reservations and dignity than Game Silver who listens to a complete stranger at almost face value in his intro and comes off as whiny.

I don't know the English version, but I really empathized with him in the Japanese version of 06. He lives in a different, completely destroyed world where everything is in despair and ruins and in constant threat of death. He said everyone lost hope, and he was kind to Amy and try to help her find Sonic, so most likely he never met anyone who had malicious intent to fool or trick. Also he is young and not much experienced outside fighting an invinsible monster who continuously respawns and try to kill everyone and everything. Right when he wishes there was a way to stop Iblis permanantly a mysterious guy comes along and speaks some persuasive words and tell him he can end this nightmare and save everyone. But when Silver tries to attack Sonic he realizes there are people who have full faith on Sonic even if he was evil making him unsure on whether killing someone to save the world is correct or not. If I was in Silver's situation I would've most likely done the same thing too. I loved his character as an inexperienced young teen who matures through the death of his friend.

In the comic pre-reboot, Silver lives in a world that is in ruins but not in a immediate or serious threat. He was raised by formal enemy Mammoth Mogul who tell him to find the traitor. He attacks the characters based on very loose assumptions, does not check his fact, never learn from his mistake and does that a couple of times, immediately assumes the other one is the "traitor", and excuses it as "I'm just trying to save my world" and ends up stranded in the present and has to work for Harvey Who in exchange for the most obvious answer. Post-reboot is much better, but I'm still seeing how he will do. 

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1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

All I meant to say is that there are some people who believe that the main Archie-exclusive cast is better written than the game-exclusive cast (again, I don't see where this is actually being contested; including the Archie versions of the game cast doesn't change the nature of this statement). This was inherently implied due to the fact that this topic- and subsequently my whole post- was talking about introducing these characters (Sally, Rotor, Bunnie, etc.) into the games.

But- and it's a big but- the ultimate reality is that I brought that up as nothing more than one example of three hypothetical attitudes someone could take in an imagined scenario where the Archie-exclusive cast actually did show up in a spin-off mobile game, which was to illustrate the potential issues (and the actual point that matters) concerning demand of Archie-exclusive content being introduced into the main games. So why the fuck this is being contested is once again beyond me.

It actually does change the nature of the statement, because it makes it difficult to tell whether you're including or excluding characters like Archie!Tails or Archie!Knuckles in your hypothetical claim of them saying "They're better written than the game cast and deserve to be in the games more than most of the game characters do." Especially given that most of the comic counterparts like Archie!Tails and Knuckles are actually based more on their game counterparts to the point they're practically one and the same (bar some like Silver and Omega), so for all they might know you could be talking about the character regardless of the version. Like, are the Archie versions of the game cast included or not? That really makes a difference in clarity here.

And it's being contested because that third example of yours that I specifically called out can come off as a strawman of what their potential attitudes would be as Archie fans are actually far more tolerant of the comic counterparts of game characters being around characters like Sally and Bunnie as opposed to non-Archie fans. Like, I could see Archie fans complaining about the lack of spotlight and the meager attention of characters like Sally and Bunnie at just getting in a mobile game, if they were to get in. But in their hypothetical attitudes regarding how these characters are written? Those same fans would be far more likely to demand the game characters like Big to be more like their comic counterparts than claim characters like Sally or Bunnie are better written than them.

49 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

I don't know the English version, but I really empathized with him in the Japanese version of 06. He lives in a different, completely destroyed world where everything is in despair and ruins and in constant threat of death. He said everyone lost hope, and he was kind to Amy and try to help her find Sonic, so most likely he never met anyone who had malicious intent to fool or trick. Also he is young and not much experienced outside fighting an invinsible monster who continuously respawns and try to kill everyone and everything. Right when he wishes there was a way to stop Iblis permanantly a mysterious guy comes along and speaks some persuasive words and tell him he can end this nightmare and save everyone. But when Silver tries to attack Sonic he realizes there are people who have full faith on Sonic even if he was evil making him unsure on whether killing someone to save the world is correct or not. If I was in Silver's situation I would've most likely done the same thing too. I loved his character as an inexperienced young teen who matures through the death of his friend.

In the comic pre-reboot, Silver lives in a world that is in ruins but not in a immediate or serious threat. He was raised by formal enemy Mammoth Mogul who tell him to find the traitor. He attacks the characters based on very loose assumptions, does not check his fact, never learn from his mistake and does that a couple of times, immediately assumes the other one is the "traitor", and excuses it as "I'm just trying to save my world" and ends up stranded in the present and has to work for Harvey Who in exchange for the most obvious answer. Post-reboot is much better, but I'm still seeing how he will do. 

Well it helps that Pre-Reboot Archie!Silver didn't have to worry about Iblis. But he does check his facts and learns from his mistakes - the problem is that his facts are a bunch of small, tattered pieces of scrap that he's putting together and leading him to the wrong conclusion as a result of missing evidence, as a massive amount of knowledge in his time was lost. So each mistake is something he learns about, scratching off the list of people who could be the traitor, as the only thing he knows for sure is that it was a member of the original Freedom Fighters. (and it's not like it was obvious given that the "traitor" was an unwilling one - usually traitors do so willingly)

That said, a key difference here is that he's actually researching things as opposed to believing a complete stranger's conclusion (one that he barely bothered to fact check himself, mind you). They're both naive, but one is actually trying to learn and find a conclusion as opposed to believing someone he just met for a few minutes. Basically, Pre-Reboot Archie!Silver is using the Scientific Method and changing his hypothesis each time he fails, and while I understand he was desperate, Game!Silver practically did the equivalent of kid talking to a stranger offering him a ride in his van.

EDIT: Mind you, I'm talking the english version. I don't listen to Sonic in Japanese.:P

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XD thank you for the mention and i'm glad you liked so much the art! :)

although i know the reasons others may give of why this would be very un-possible.. i'm aware about it...

at least i think it would be nice to see an Archie Sonic mini game featured by archie comics.. or at least a Fangame (wich its more possible to see)

by example... have you seen AdamBryceThomas' personal project on deviant art?

Quote

bg_mockup_by_adambrycethomas-d9omix9.pngchar_select_final_colors_by_adambrycethoscreen_by_adambrycethomas-d9oieik.jpgsally_sprites_lines__redone___walking_an

he says he doesn't know the technical side for make this working as game. but i like how good looks so far.. he still has much to do and to fix.. but still would be cool to see this running someday.... even though he means this to be a brawler thing(??).. not a runners like game.. and even if its actually just "fan work" and not official.. i think anything like this would be pretty nice!...

also...now i remember.. Rapha Knight has made Sally look like a runners character

sally_runners_by_elesis_knight-d935v5b.p  (this inspired me to draw Nicole as a companion on the pic i did)

so who knows if she gets to do something else with it...XD (and as i said.. if its just fanwork.. it would be fine to me)

Spoiler

just like..i don't even know how she get to make a Sally acorn model for Sonic.. unleashed or generations :lol:

tumblr_ns6gaxuOpu1uve9kao3_400.pngtumblr_ns5sx8s0Bi1uve9kao2_1280.pngtumblr_ns5sx8s0Bi1uve9kao1_1280.pngtumblr_ns5sx8s0Bi1uve9kao3_1280.png

 

 

 

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In fairness I could see A LOT of people complaining if Boom!Knuckles became the official Knuckles.

I don't see much difference in the Archie characterisations outside the (attempts at a) deeper storyline allowing more display. The biggest plus with Silver was that he was called out on his bullshit rather than getting away with his apathetic 'circumstance have changed' quote (though even then I'm very mixed on whether Sonic's characterisation was changed for the better in that regard), otherwise post-06 Silver is about as likeable as Archie Silver. Omega is at least better due to being quirky and that gaining him chemistry with his team mates, but everyone else almost seems to get the opposite direction and get their traits downplayed and less important to the dynamic. I've always liked Big in the games, pre-reboot Big was more a full on retard, post-reboot Big is fun but mostly for being more loyal to the games version (aside from Bigally moments which are admittedly cute).

Truthfully I feel like Archie's dynamic castrates the characters. Everyone's a Freedom Fighter and works soldier style against Eggman perpetually. We actually don't see a whole lot of their personal lives or motivations, compared to the games where a lot of times characters are caught in the mix concerning their own goals.

And you have a great art style, Drawloverlala. Liking Ralpha Knight's 3D work too, though I prefer your more retro Sally design (especially the facial structure).

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As much as I enjoy the Freedom Fighters, they simply would not work in the series for the reasons stated already. I understand the argument that it could be a spin-off series like Sonic Boom, but the problem I see in having multiple continuities is inconsistency. It's something that works in comics having multiple univereses and all but I don't think it'll translate well to video games (at least, not with Sonic). For this reason I think it would be a bad idea to incorporate the Freedom Fighters into the Sonic game universe.

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