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*(What If We Got A Satam/Archie Runners Game?)*


Chris Knopps

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1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

Well, there's really nothing wrong with that demand.

If demand starts encroaching on what I want then yes there is a conflict of interest, in the same way that there is a problem with the demand that says only Sonic should be playable.

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

Growth/evolution is not that terrifying of a topic, nor should it be that enraging.

Change/"growth"/"evolution" is not inherently good or bad; these things are only as good as the strength of their proposals (of which you've outlined none other than "I and other Archie fans would like it."). Framing change as something that will definitely be a net positive is illogical.

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

No, that's not just unfair to developers freedom, but the consumers right to something different instead of constantly buying the same thing, just with different stages. Everyone has a right to more new/larger content than just the locations they play in.

This is not a damned creative freedom issue because creative freedom is being exercised appropriately. Considering Sega owns the property they could have long since put Archie characters in the games by now, but they haven't because they simply don't want to for whatever reasons are relevant to them. That is creative freedom in action; they have the choice to decide what they do and do not want to make. Subsequently, consumers don't have the right to buy "new/larger content" that no one wants to make.

49 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

If it was the old canon, you would definitely have a point, but since the reboot, Archie have incorporated so many game elements to the point where it might as well just be a general Sonic story driven universe, with some non-game characters. From the way you make it sound like, it sounds like the game's elements would need to be actively changed to allow the Freedom Fighters in the game, when really, their origins and some of their elements could be changed to allow them to fit in the game universe. Even the comic have adapted a backstory that could fit into the games.The events of the original trilogy happened with solely Sonic and Tails, and the Freedom Fighters then were inspired by Sonic's heroism that they rose up and teamed up with Sonic to help him stop Robotnik. It's a reasonable stance if you just want absolutely fuck all elements from the comics in the game, but honestly, the comic's reboot has already changed up things to the point where the comic's characters honestly could fit right at home with the game canon.

The fact that you say that the Freedom Fighters would actively need to be changed is another part of the problem, which Sean outlined in further detail and is instrumental in my point about respecting each canon as an individual entity. If we're having to alter the character's histories, abilities, and personalities in order to fit into another canon, you can't reasonably say you have the same character anymore. Such is apparent with the fact that each incarnation of Sonic is different and, for all intents and purposes, are simply different characters with the same design, each with its own fans and detractors. So then the appeal of even having these characters in the games must simply come down to the novelty of just seeing them in an interactive environment, at which point I would argue that that isn't a good enough reason for Sega to start dealing with any potential licensing issues and poking the hornet's nest that is a game fanbase rife with division about the creative decisions that have defined the game canon in itself across the years.

The bolded is also indeed my stance. I want absolutely fuck all elements from the comics in the games.

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No.

Mainly because the entire basis’ for these characters don’t even exist in the games. A lot of the appeal of those characters revolves around the circumstances they found themselves in within their own continuity. To shoehorn in canon foreigners from a vastly different continuity is a disservice to the characters as well as the continuity because it practically demands that certain aspects be ignored that were instrumental to those character’s backgrounds and it muddles-up aspects of the games.

It muddles up the character’s dynamics as well if you had Rotor for instance leeching Tails’ mechanical aptitude or detracting from it and in order to make them fit the way they do in SatAM and the comic’s, you’d have to meddle with them so much that they wouldn’t much resemble the characters whose traits defined them and contributed to making them so loved. You’d also have to meddle with the premise of the games too in order to make them believably relevant. For a series that has one hell of a time trying to settle on a series-appropriate identity regarding it’s storytelling and any premise beyond “Stop Dr Eggman!”, we don’t need something like that complicating it even further.

For instance, in order to preserve Bunnie as she is, you’d have to incorporate the unwelcome concept of roboticization that doesn’t really have a place in the games or in Eggman’s modus operandi. A big part of Bunnie’s character development focused on her struggle to accept her roboticized body and use it deftly. Remove the cause that led to that development and you no longer have Bunnie, the highly sympathetic part of her character and her main schtick.

Sally is another one. A big part of her character especially under Bollers and Flynn settled on her romantic relationship with Sonic that bogged-down the comic with a romantic plot tumor that it didn’t need and morphed Sonic’s character into the opposite of what it truly was to facilitate it. Another big part of her character is the fact that she is a princess who not only was afforded authority because of that position (Hello spotlight stealing squad) but also gave her another very important motivation when it came to what she was fighting for - Her own throne, her family’s birthright.

There's also the reasoning  that there is no place for her leadership. The hero characters in the games don’t act like Freedom Fighters. Nor do they need to. And the position of Sonic’s right hand and brains has already been satisfactorily filled by Tails.

Whatsmore, what I always disliked about the Sonic-Sally dynamic was that she acted as the leash that prevented Sonic from doing unwise stuff. This was something of a stopper on Sonic being more fallible by diminishing his recklessness. And if Sonic didn’t obey Tails regarding not punting that Conch out of Eggman’s grasp in SLW, what’s going to make him listen to Sally?

I’m against gratuitous introduction of characters from other continuities that really have no business being introduced, especially given that the cast that already exists in the games is not getting the focus that they deserve. 

I mean, if SEGA/Sonic Team/Pontac and Graff can’t adequately take advantage of the sort of potential the characters they already have to work with and can’t even bloody write the ones they are using competently then what makes the fans who are clamouring for the introduction of their beloved Freedom Fighters think they’re going to get treated any differently should they be introduced in the games?

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Plus, if they add characters from Archie/Satam, there will be fans demanding them to add Sonic the Comic/AoSth/Underground/others characters too, and MANY (angry) discussions will arise from that.

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4 minutes ago, Adamis said:

Plus, if they add characters from Archie/Satam, there will be fans demanding them to add Sonic the Comic/AoSth/Underground/others characters too, and MANY (angry) discussions will arise from that.

Everyone has their own opinions. Heated discussions are discussions nonetheless and is just a mere part of the big picture. It's not really an ominous thing or something to fear. If anything I'd consider it exciting. It's a spice the platter we know as Sonic is kind of missing. It's just another form of passion really.

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43 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

LOL! Seriously!? 

Outside of the fandom nobody knows what SatAM is, new fans sure as hell don't have that much of an attachment to it. You've gone from one minority group to an even smaller minority group with this one. 

 

 

I know many people who do not care at all the games but know the existence of SatAM and the comics, in fact bring characters of SatAM to the games could give more money but knowing Sega who likes take stupid decisions I doubt this will come to pass.

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Just now, Adamis said:

Plus, if they add characters from Archie/Satam, there will be fans demanding them to add Sonic the Comic/AoSth/Underground/others characters too, and MANY (angry) discussions will arise from that.

...

I just imagined this scene where Sonic is saved by this new character and asks him who he is, only to hear this in return:

"Well you see, I was robotized by Robotnik, but I turned against him and now I fight the good fight!"

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The angry discussions that would result wouldn't be a problem insomuch as angry discussion is already a thing. The problem is- again- you open up the games to being at the mercy of every single canon and idea under the sun being able to influence on the games' own (already confused) identity. Because the games have had so many different tones, focuses, soft reboots, and the like, there's no objective borders on what they wouldn't be allowed and not allowed to do the moment you do open the floodgates to that. Basically, every single current problem in regards to Sega not being able to discern what people want the games to be would significantly increase the moment you open up the idea pool to include Archie, StCo, X, and even Boom. And I'm sorry, but I want the games to find their own footing and focus with the elements that they have at their own disposal.

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Verte (and a few others) hit the nail on the head. You just can't go around freewheeling and merging canons just because you want to. The characters involved in each are so different and require such diverse circumstances that any attempt to merge them will do little more than tarnish both sides of the coin, creating an offshoot that is neither here nor there. Merging the assets is simply not an option.

Now on the topic of something completely "new and different" i.e. a stand alone spinoff game, thats still in the iffy territory simple due to the sheer amount of legal work that has to go into the licensing angle. You'd duck the problem of merging the assets, but you'd be establish yet another brand of blue hedgehog. It would be starting to be borderline ridiculous if some poor tyke had to read the back of the box in order to figure out what kind of Sonic he was actually buying.

 

EDIT: and for the record, I say this as a huge archie fan who would snap up a videogame in a heartbeat.

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If you want to see a game where developers literally take characters from the comics and repurpose them for the games then look at Sonic Chronicles. The only thing setting those characters apart from Archie's Dark Legion are the names and designs.

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

If you want to see a game where developers literally take characters from the comics and repurpose them for the games then look at Sonic Chronicles. The only thing setting those characters apart from Archie's Dark Legion are the names and designs.

...F Penders...

Still wanting a sequel to that game but what can you do?

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7 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

Seriously, why can't we have the Satam/Archie cast in a Sonic game already? At least in a spin-off where there is ZERO harm in doing so.

 

This is your first mistake.

In England, us Sonic loving kids didn't get Archie. We got Fleetway. And if I started a thread about how they should totally make a Sonic game with Tekno, Shortfuse, and Johnny Lightfoot, you would think I was crazy and that it wouldn't sell. 

 

The only Sonic cartoons I remember seeing as a kid were Sonic Underground and Sonic X. Were Adventures of... and the other American one even shown in the UK?

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4 minutes ago, Sean said:

I cited Chronicles as an example of it being a bad idea, actually

That's because of Penders more than anything though.

That, and then the following collapse or... Merger? Whatever happened to Bioware.

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1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

That's because of Penders more than anything though.

That, and then the following collapse or... Merger? Whatever happened to Bioware.

I think you're missing his point... 

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1 minute ago, Hyp3hat said:

I think you're missing his point... 

I don't recall there being many issues with the game save for critique on the battle system and stage design.

I think it did well merging the Genesis and Adventure worlds, especially in comparison to recent games.

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Just now, Chris Knopps said:

I don't recall there being many issues with the game save for critique on the battle system and stage design.

He was saying that the whole 'Dark Legion' schtick that Penders sued over was garbage storytelling, in both comics and Chronicles. I'm pretty sure that everyone thinks that the Knuckles comics are str8 garbage?

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I think it did well merging the Genesis and Adventure worlds, especially in comparison to recent games.

If you think this, there's no helping you. 

So it had Green Hill Zone, GUN, and Echidna tribes - it still doesn't make it a good story. You just can't tick off a series of fanservice boxes and call it writing.

If you want to write something on an existing canon for money, try to avoid inter-dimensional travel?  It's fanfiction writing at best.

 

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I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a side-series of Archie-based games as long as they remain a side series.  Namely because the world-building and characterization post-reboot is probably the best the series has seen in quite some time.  So I'd love it if there could be some branch of Sonic that attempts to incorporate this aside from Sonic Boom.

But I can't help but agree with the opposition more than anything advocated in this thread.

Conflicting fan demand would only further divide the fanbase and make it much more difficult to manage the series as a whole.  In addition, the fact that Archie Sonic isn't available in most territories outside the US, compounded by the fact that the UK received a vastly different comic series, it wouldn't be a very intelligent marketing decision.  You can't use SatAM as a crutch for this argument, because even though it was released worldwide, it's simply a 20-year-old cartoon that history has largely forgotten about.  Sure, you have some people that watched SatAM and never even cared to touch the games, but the majority of those people are 90's kids that watched it when it was on.  You'd be hard-pressed to draw in too many new fans when relying on something as niche and archaic as SatAM, and even if you wanted to cash in on that niche demographic, it wouldn't make sense to use a video game when SatAM itself was a cartoon and that's how people outside the core fanbase remember it if they do at all.

I like the idea of Sonic having this big cast of different interchangeable characters with their own unique backstories and conflicts, but there's far too many obstacles to overcome when using Archie, and especially SatAM, to achieve this.

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1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

That's because of Penders more than anything though.

That, and then the following collapse or... Merger? Whatever happened to Bioware.

 

EA brought Bioware shortly after Chronicles came out.

So essentially, any chance of a Chronicles 2 is instantly dead in the water because of that.

 

Penders is human garbage, but he's not to blame for that one.

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I don't see a cameo doing much to hurt anything (an unnamed NPC in the overworld or a face in a crowd, for example), but importing the characters for the sake of it doesn't seem like a strong enough reason; however I understand the plight for some who want those characters to be in a bigger limelight - the Freedom Fighters are, like it or not, a part of the franchise legacy, as far back as the first 3 years of the lifetime of the series. The cartoons and both comics had some variation on the animal friends that Sonic rescued, and they even got a few bonus cameos in Sonic Spinball to show for it. There was even going to be a terrible game based off of SatAM.

Again, I don't think it's at all necessary or even the best idea, but I understand why some would want to push for it. The thing is that Freedom Fighters, black-eyed Robotnik, Mobius and other early canon oddities are products of the Western canon, and it may be best to leave it as such. They live on in the comics, and I think that's fine. If the comics were to be cancelled, I think some of us may be humming a different tune, though. 

Spoiler

I have absolutely no qualms if they do, though; Western Sonic is a huge part of my childhood, so as long as they're interesting characters, then I'm fine. But I think they'd do better as redesigns in the Boom canon - keep that Western split going on, eh?

 

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2 hours ago, Mr. Armstrong said:

I know many people who do not care at all the games but know the existence of SatAM and the comics

That's a great market, lets make games and sell them to people who don't care about the games.

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1 hour ago, Sean said:

I cited Chronicles as an example of it being a bad idea, actually

I'm certain that Chronicles had plenty of problems that weren't that, actually.

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16 minutes ago, Detective Hogfather said:

That's a great market, lets make games and sell them to people who don't care about the games.

 
Like Boom.
 
The point of doing something new is to attract new audiences, of course if made correctly it will work.
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5 minutes ago, Mr. Armstrong said:
 
Like Boom.

I don't think you could have given a more undermining example if you tried.

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Boom is a different thing, because the primary focus was still on the video games, even if the TV show ended up being the more popular outlet.  It wasn't attempting to sell a product to an audience that otherwise didn't care for the medium like a suggested SatAM game would do.

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1 minute ago, Detective Hogfather said:

I don't think you could have given a more undermining example if you tried.

What I'm trying to say is Sega already tried to appeal to a wider audience that is not related with the Sonic games a clear example of this was the creation of Sonic Boom.

Spoiler

Sorry if I do not give a long example but my english is very limited.

 

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